Detailed question for a CHL instructor

[AJSully421]

Although I'm a resident of Texas, i decided to get a non-resident license from Utah due to ease, and it is much less expensive. I was talking to a buddy who works at a gun shop, and was telling him about how much cheaper it was to do it that way. He is also a CHL instructor. He told me that for a texas resident to get a non-resident license from another state, and carry in texas was not allowed. i would be able to carry in any other state that has reciprocity with utah, but not in texas as a texas resident... he says. He also told me that the AG, or the maybe head of the DPS has made some sort of statement as to that fact, but i cannot find any law, press release, or any opinion on it in the texas online system, or in texas case law where a resident has been charged with UCW with a foriegn permit. I was told that this was perfectly legit due to the reciprocal agreement, and I believe the instructor that I took the CHL class from that told me about the utah license over this gun shop buddy. I know that several folks here have utah or florida non resident licenses but no texas license, or many have another license as a "back up" in case they get their texas CHL suspended for something less than illegal (not changing address, or something administrative). so many of us here might be in the same boat.

Since CHL instructors can get info that i can't. and since you can call someone special at the legal dept at DPS and get some straight legal answers, can someone look into this and let us know before we get the silver hookup for doing something harmless.

I'm not really looking for speculation, i need a clear answer from someone authoritative from the CHL office, or someone else high up at DPS so we don't get screwed. thanks!

-AJ

Edited for clarity on who I believe is correct... I really don't believe the gun shop buddy who says only Texas CHL for Texas Residents

[Charles L. Cotton]

Well, I'm not with DPS, but I do know the answer to your question. Also , DPS is not an authority on this issue; you need only to look at the statute to see if there are any limitations on who can carry on a reciprocal state's license.

Your instructor was wrong. Texas law does not prohibit a Texas resident from carrying on a license issued by another state, so long as Texas recognizes that state's license.

Colorado recently changed it's laws, since it became well publicized that some Colorado residents were carrying on a reciprocal state's license. I could see some in the Texas Legislature attempting to do the same, if this practice becomes widespread and/or well publicized. If people start asking DPS if this is okay, that day will come sooner rather than later.

Chas.

[AJSully421]

... If people start asking DPS if this is okay, that day will come sooner rather than later.

Chas.

Good point. I believe you, as I could not find a single shred of proof of what this gun shop guy said.

[AEA]

As usual in all this confusion/loop holes.......

You CAN be the test case.........

Is this something you want to risk?

[Crossfire]

He told me that for a texas resident to get a non-resident license from another state, and carry in texas was not allowed. i would be able to carry in any other state that has reciprocity with utah, but not in texas as a texas resident... he says. He also told me that the AG, or the maybe head of the DPS has made some sort of statement as to that fact, but i cannot find any law, press release, or any opinion on it in the texas online system, or in texas case law where a resident has been charged with UCW with a foriegn permit.

You can't find this in print anywhere because your gun shop buddy MADE IT UP.

Check your reciprocity agreement: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... eement.pdf

All the proof you need is in there. And you have 2 instructors on this board that teach both the Texas and Utah CHL, that have both checked it out. Even if you don't believe me, you should absolutely trust Mr. Cotton's interpretation of the law.

[frankie_the_yankee]

FWIW, when I moved here in 2001 I knew it would take (at the time) almost a year to get a TX CHL. So before moving I obtained a FL permit. Reading TX law, it seemed to me that TX honored FL permits regardless of whether the permit holder was a resident of FL or not.

Nevertheless, before moving, I called TX DPS and was referred to the Legal Dept. I asked them if TX honored FL permits held by TX residents. Surprisingly, the question stumped the person I was talking to and they told me they would have to review it and get back to me.

A couple of hours later, they called me back and told me that the law was silent on whether a non-res FL permit was honored. Then they went on to say that the law provided that FL permits would be honored, and that the law did not list any exceptions, as in FL permits that would not be honored.

Since no exceptions were listed, it was presumed that the law honored all FL permits.

I realize that this is not the same as a full-fledged legal opinion from a court or from case law. But this is what DPS told me, and a few months later, when stopped by an Austin cop who questioned me carrying on a FL permit, I related it to him with good results. (Meaning that after hearing my explanation he was OK with it.)

[apaul]

I'm no instructor.....but trying to save a few bucks to get a CHL?.........really? I'd sleep much better at night knowing I had the real deal. When you get pulled over, or if you shoot someone you are going to get poked and prodded a lot more, and alhtough there may be reciprocity, I'd bet there is some kind of loophole that will cause you greif.

[AJSully421]

having looked things over a bit more, I really trust what Linda says. The law is writen in such a way that if it is not specifically forbidden, then it is expressly allowed... and nothing states that a resident of texas may not legally carry within texas with a non-resident license from another state with reciprocity with texas... so it must be allowed. thanks!

[srothstein]

AJ,

The best idea is to always check the exact wording of the law yourself. If it is not perfectly clear, ask a lawyer for help understanding it. That is my first advice, and with it I give a warning. Even when it seems perfectly clear, there may be something about it you did not know or understand which make sit less so.

Reciprocity is the perfect example of it not being perfectly clear to begin with, and most people needing help understanding. Penal Code section 46.15 says that the unlawfully carrying law is not applicable to any person carrying a license issued under the provisions of Government Code chapter 411. That part is pretty clear, so I read the Government Code chapter referred to and it becomes less clear. Chapter 411 deals mostly with licenses issued by DPS, which seems to mean that it has to be a Texas CHL. But, then there is chapter 411.173, which deals with a non-resident license. This chapter says DPS may issue a license to a person who is not a Texas resident. This section also has a paragraph that allows for reciprocal agreements.

And this is where it gets unclear. Normally, a person can read a section and it will say who it applies to. This section does not have any limit on the out of state license. To almost everyone, the law's basic principle is that anything not expressly forbidden is permitted. This means that a Texas resident can get a license from another state and carry on it.

But, the legislative intent might be construed differently from it being placed in a section about non-residents. This is where some people get the belief that a Texas resident cannot carry in Texas on an out of state license.

So, how does it work out? Remember that the person whose interpretation is most important is the police officer who you are talking to on the street. Most of the time, cops will take it like the rest of the board has told you. There is no limit that it be a Texas CHL for a Texas resident. But there are some cops who will take it differently. They will read it as reciprocal licenses only apply to non-residents.

If you meet a cop like that, you might end up arrested (50-50 chance depending on the overall situation). Then you get to take a chance with a DA. If you cannot convince him, then you get to take a chance with a jury. Any cop or lawyer will tell you that it is always a roll of the dice what a jury will do.

I think you are perfectly legal carrying in Texas on another state's license, even if you are a Texas resident. But I also recommend staying away from being a test case when you can avoid it. Get what you can afford now, but also get a Texas CHL as soon as you can, just in case something does go down. I hope you never need either one, but this is still my best advice.

[AJSully421]

great advice Steve, thanks

[3dfxMM]

Sorry for reviving an old thread, but I was away for awhile and am just now catching up on my reading.

If I recall correctly, if you are carrying in Texas on a Utah permit, you will be in violation of federal firearms laws if you are within 1000 feet (I think) of a school. Someone will surely correct me here if I am wrong.

[Keith B]

Sorry for reviving an old thread, but I was away for awhile and am just now catching up on my reading.

If I recall correctly, if you are carrying in Texas on a Utah permit, you will be in violation of federal firearms laws if you are within 1000 feet (I think) of a school. Someone will surely correct me here if I am wrong.

That is one of the things a non-resident license does not allow is the 'Gun Free School Zone' exemption. However, a resident license is only good in the state you reside in, so traveling to another state does not get you the exemption either.

Also, many states will not recognize a non-resident license on reciprocity. You also don't get the NICS bypass when purchasing a firearm.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Sorry for reviving an old thread, but I was away for awhile and am just now catching up on my reading.

If I recall correctly, if you are carrying in Texas on a Utah permit, you will be in violation of federal firearms laws if you are within 1000 feet (I think) of a school. Someone will surely correct me here if I am wrong.

This is correct, as the federal statute is written and if it is enforceable. It would also hold true for every citizen with any firearm in their car, if they don't hold a Texas CHL. I don't know of a single prosecution under the revised federal statute of a person for merely driving within 1,000 feet of a school. I'm not sure there has even been a prosecution of someone on campus, but there may be one in a Yankee state .

Chas.