Fresh new page in the ongoing debate about taser use. The arguments of the manufacturer are sounding hollow:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/nort ... 217722.stm
Safety Of Tasers Called Into Question
Moderator: carlson1
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casingpoint
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Greybeard
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Re: Safety Of Tasers Called Into Question
There is an article in June issue of SWAT about 'em.
Author John Chapman seems to think they have their place for LEOs, but is apparently not a big fan of 'em for citizen dependence. He points out that unless you plan to stick around and keep juicing the BG until the calvary arrives to put the cuffs on him, the "shockee" may promptly get back up. Then what?
Author John Chapman seems to think they have their place for LEOs, but is apparently not a big fan of 'em for citizen dependence. He points out that unless you plan to stick around and keep juicing the BG until the calvary arrives to put the cuffs on him, the "shockee" may promptly get back up. Then what?
CHL Instructor since 1995
http://www.dentoncountysports.com "A Private Palace for Pistol Proficiency"
http://www.dentoncountysports.com "A Private Palace for Pistol Proficiency"
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melkor41
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Re: Safety Of Tasers Called Into Question
The civ model tasers have a button you can push where it keeps the trigger down for 30 seconds while you put the taser down and run...
and yes tasers are DEADLY no matter what the manufacturer claims.... Later when i get home i can paste a report I wrote for a class about them which has a list of the dead. At the time I wrote it back in Feb I had compiled a list of 128 people who died immediatly after being tasered. The list contains names and URLs to the news stories. This list is ONLY the people whos names were in the article... there were dozens upon dozens of articles I came accross in my research where the suspect was unidentified and I left those out of the list because I could not rule out duplicates and it did not have as much impact as seeing the persons name and reading about their life. One person not in the list of the dead, but mentioned in my report was a police cheif that went to a demonstration put on by taser about how safe it was and volunteered to be shocked to show his officers how it worked. He ended up with perm neural damage and was unable to work anymore.
Taser international still claims that no one has ever been killed by a taser. Some of the news stories even have interviews with the MEs that claim people from taser came to their offices and "advised" them to leave their company name out of the reports.
AZCentral had an investigation where it provided several hundred names and dates of the dead but the list was removed after a takedown notice served against them from Taser int.
Tasers are less-lethal force... not non-lethal force... they were marketed as an alternate choice when deadly force was authorized. I fully support the use of a taser as a choice when you are at the point where you MUST IMMEDIATLY SHOOT TO STOP someone from doing something horrible to themselves or others.. not as a pain compliance device.... and sadly over time thats what they have become... a pain compliant device...
Take a look at the utah case where the cop KILLED the motorist with the taser because she was being rude and would not get out of her car during a traffic stop. Would that situation have warrented SHOOTING her? nope.... but none the less shes dead because the officer decided to use it as a pain compliance device.
Take a look at the "DONT TAZE ME BRO!" incident. Were they justified in shooting him with their glocks? nope... .but they were pretty fast about tazering him... If 4 police officers cant subdue a lanky college kid without attempting to kill him then they need to reevaluate their career choice.
I dont know if its still army policy or not. But at the time when I wrote the report I had a link where even the US Army banned tasering their own soldiers as part of training due to the risks of perm injuring a soldier.
and yes tasers are DEADLY no matter what the manufacturer claims.... Later when i get home i can paste a report I wrote for a class about them which has a list of the dead. At the time I wrote it back in Feb I had compiled a list of 128 people who died immediatly after being tasered. The list contains names and URLs to the news stories. This list is ONLY the people whos names were in the article... there were dozens upon dozens of articles I came accross in my research where the suspect was unidentified and I left those out of the list because I could not rule out duplicates and it did not have as much impact as seeing the persons name and reading about their life. One person not in the list of the dead, but mentioned in my report was a police cheif that went to a demonstration put on by taser about how safe it was and volunteered to be shocked to show his officers how it worked. He ended up with perm neural damage and was unable to work anymore.
Taser international still claims that no one has ever been killed by a taser. Some of the news stories even have interviews with the MEs that claim people from taser came to their offices and "advised" them to leave their company name out of the reports.
AZCentral had an investigation where it provided several hundred names and dates of the dead but the list was removed after a takedown notice served against them from Taser int.
Tasers are less-lethal force... not non-lethal force... they were marketed as an alternate choice when deadly force was authorized. I fully support the use of a taser as a choice when you are at the point where you MUST IMMEDIATLY SHOOT TO STOP someone from doing something horrible to themselves or others.. not as a pain compliance device.... and sadly over time thats what they have become... a pain compliant device...
Take a look at the utah case where the cop KILLED the motorist with the taser because she was being rude and would not get out of her car during a traffic stop. Would that situation have warrented SHOOTING her? nope.... but none the less shes dead because the officer decided to use it as a pain compliance device.
Take a look at the "DONT TAZE ME BRO!" incident. Were they justified in shooting him with their glocks? nope... .but they were pretty fast about tazering him... If 4 police officers cant subdue a lanky college kid without attempting to kill him then they need to reevaluate their career choice.
I dont know if its still army policy or not. But at the time when I wrote the report I had a link where even the US Army banned tasering their own soldiers as part of training due to the risks of perm injuring a soldier.
Don't wait for your ship to come in, swim out to it...kill the captain...and claim it as yours. : Lodge2004
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melkor41
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Re: Safety Of Tasers Called Into Question
A lot of cops dont like civs having the same toys as them....Greybeard wrote:There is an article in June issue of SWAT about 'em.
Author John Chapman seems to think they have their place for LEOs, but is apparently not a big fan of 'em for citizen dependence.
I was at GPSR a few weeks ago and some off duty cop was making a stink to a guy i know about his EO Tech that says "For Military or Law Enforcement use only" on the side.
I have been looking for one of the AR receivers that was made during the ban that has the same "For Military or Law Enforcement use only" written on the side. I used to have some 20rd mini-14 mags that were stamped with that.
I have also seen someone with a custom AR receiver that I got a chuckle out of.. it was engraved "For civilan use ONLY"
Don't wait for your ship to come in, swim out to it...kill the captain...and claim it as yours. : Lodge2004
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srothstein
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Re: Safety Of Tasers Called Into Question
Melkor,
First, I want to note that I am biased in this matter. My research shows differently than yours, but I was writing a term paper proposing to do away with all impact weapons and replace them with tasers.
I would love to see your list of people who died right after being tased, since even Amnesty International cannot list one. They have a list of people who have died after being tased, but there was always some delay. As for someone serving me with a take down notice, they can serve all I want if I am correct. Truth always has been a defense to libel and slander suits.
Are Tasers dangerous? Sure, they are a weapon and any weapon must have some danger to it. Do Tasers cause death? I don't think they can possibly cause death in a direct manner, but they can cause it indirectly. In almost every one of the recorded deaths (that I have researched) so far, the person was also overdosed on drugs, usually cocaine. They also can cause death because the person can fall from losing control over his muscles. Most people do fall, and hitting the ground is nothing, but one guy was tased standing near the edge of a roof, so the fall was more dangerous than normal. Others have hit their heads on curbs or whatnot when they collapsed and that can cause injuries.
There are lots of officers who have been injured, some permanently, by Taser use during training. The muscle reaction can cause fractures in people who have well developed musculature (read that as body builders). I have read of a couple incidents of officers who received medical retirements from the vertabrae fractures received.
Does it constitute the use of deadly force? Not in my opinion. I can (and have) caused a death by wrestling with a guy (heart attack while fighting us from cocaine, methamphetamine, benzedrine in his system), even though I never intended any injury at all. If I only use force when i am justified to shoot, there are going to be a lot of shootings or a lot of criminals wlaking around who tell cops no and go commit other crimes.
What I find interesting in the story about the cook county study is the animal used and the way the Taser was deployed. 40 seconds, 15 second break, then another 40 seconds of use. Clearly not what Taser recommends or trains officers to do. And then there is the fact that it was a pig and not a person. I do not know enough biology to say if that is a valid comparison or not. But Taser is probably wrong for writing the study off also. It shows me a reason to conduct more studies into the effects so we can properly allocate the danger.
First, I want to note that I am biased in this matter. My research shows differently than yours, but I was writing a term paper proposing to do away with all impact weapons and replace them with tasers.
I would love to see your list of people who died right after being tased, since even Amnesty International cannot list one. They have a list of people who have died after being tased, but there was always some delay. As for someone serving me with a take down notice, they can serve all I want if I am correct. Truth always has been a defense to libel and slander suits.
Are Tasers dangerous? Sure, they are a weapon and any weapon must have some danger to it. Do Tasers cause death? I don't think they can possibly cause death in a direct manner, but they can cause it indirectly. In almost every one of the recorded deaths (that I have researched) so far, the person was also overdosed on drugs, usually cocaine. They also can cause death because the person can fall from losing control over his muscles. Most people do fall, and hitting the ground is nothing, but one guy was tased standing near the edge of a roof, so the fall was more dangerous than normal. Others have hit their heads on curbs or whatnot when they collapsed and that can cause injuries.
There are lots of officers who have been injured, some permanently, by Taser use during training. The muscle reaction can cause fractures in people who have well developed musculature (read that as body builders). I have read of a couple incidents of officers who received medical retirements from the vertabrae fractures received.
Does it constitute the use of deadly force? Not in my opinion. I can (and have) caused a death by wrestling with a guy (heart attack while fighting us from cocaine, methamphetamine, benzedrine in his system), even though I never intended any injury at all. If I only use force when i am justified to shoot, there are going to be a lot of shootings or a lot of criminals wlaking around who tell cops no and go commit other crimes.
What I find interesting in the story about the cook county study is the animal used and the way the Taser was deployed. 40 seconds, 15 second break, then another 40 seconds of use. Clearly not what Taser recommends or trains officers to do. And then there is the fact that it was a pig and not a person. I do not know enough biology to say if that is a valid comparison or not. But Taser is probably wrong for writing the study off also. It shows me a reason to conduct more studies into the effects so we can properly allocate the danger.
Steve Rothstein
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aardwolf
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Re: Safety Of Tasers Called Into Question
I put tasers in the less lethal category like rubber bullets. I think tasers are useful in law enforcement but I don't want one. (I think I should be allowed to own one but don't want one.)
We're here. With gear. Get used to it.
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melkor41
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Re: Safety Of Tasers Called Into Question
Your right, no one has fallen over dead with the prongs in their chest.. they die right after.. sometimes a few minutes.. sometimes an hour or two. It has been called "Sudden Taser Death Syndrome". Yes, some had complications such as drugs in their system when they were tasered. Some were old (92) , some were very young (7) . One was in diabetic shock and the officer tasered him for being unresponsive....unresponsive.... would you shoot someone with a gun who was lying in the road and not responding to your commands?srothstein wrote:Melkor,
I would love to see your list of people who died right after being tased, since even Amnesty International cannot list one. They have a list of people who have died after being tased, but there was always some delay. As for someone serving me with a take down notice, they can serve all I want if I am correct. Truth always has been a defense to libel and slander suits.
Please do not confuse my hate of the taser with disrespect or disapprovial of law enforcement in general. I have a lot of respect for LEOs, especially you.
I have strong disagreements with the device and the way the device is portrayed and deployed.
I found a rought draft of the list on my work pc I will edit my post with my final version late tonnight or this weekend.
NAME URL, some URLS contain multiple names in the articles
A cow (yes a cow) http://www.komotv.com/news/local/5305371.html
Albert Romero http://www.denverpost.com/ci_6386600
Alesandro Fiacco http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolo ... 98&k=71652
Andrew Athetis http://www.fox11az.com/news/topstories/ ... 0e60b.html
Brandon Smiley http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/app ... 40323/1009
Brian Lichtenstein http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Brian Loan http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/6062666.stm
Brian Patrick O’Neal http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Carl Trotter http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Carlos Casillas Fernandez http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Carolyn Daniels http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... 74415.html
Christian Allen http://tallahassee.com/legacy/special/b ... -days.html
Christopher Hernandez http://www.upi.com/International_Intell ... nded/6029/
Clark Whitehouse http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolo ... 98&k=71652
Claudio Castagnetta http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolo ... 98&k=71652
Clayton Alvin Willey http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolo ... 98&k=71652
Clyde Patrick http://www.abc3340.com/news/stories/1007/460202.html
Curt Lee Rosentangle http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/201 ... ths01.html
David Glowczenski http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/ ... 8859.shtml
Dennis Hyde http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Dwayne Zachary http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Eddie Alvarado http://www.newswithviews.com/Ryter/jon134.htm
Emily Marie Delafield http://www.newswithviews.com/Ryter/jon134.htm
Eric Hammock http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... 74415.html
Eric Mahoney http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Ernesto Valdez http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Frederick Williams http://www.11alive.com/news/news_articl ... ryid=62415
Gefrey Johnson http://cbs2chicago.com/local/Gefrey.Joh ... 38954.html
Glen Leyba http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/ ... 8859.shtml
Gordon Randall Jones http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/conte ... _0102.html
Gordon Rauch http://symtym.com/2004/11/sudden_taser_death_syndrome/
Greg Saulsbury http://www.nbc11.com/news/4042765/detail.html
Gurmeet Sandhu http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolo ... 98&k=71652
Hansel Cunningham http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Horace Owen http://www.newswithviews.com/Ryter/jon134.htm
Howard Hyde http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolo ... 98&k=71652
Howard Starr http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Jacob Lair http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/201827_taser01.html
James Borden http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/ ... 8859.shtml
James Foldi http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolo ... 98&k=71652
James Wathan, Jr http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Jarrel Gray http://www.gazette.net/stories/120607/f ... 2359.shtml
Jason Dean http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolo ... 98&k=71652
Jason Dockery http://peoplesgeography.com/2006/11/18/ ... e-to-guns/
Jeffrey Earnhardt http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Jeffrey Turner http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nati ... &cset=true
Jerry Knight http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolo ... 98&k=71652
Joel Dawn Casey http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
John Cox http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Jos Perez http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Jose Angel Rios http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Josh Brown http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Juan Nunez, III http://www.saveourcivilliberties.org/en ... 1188.shtml
Keith Graff http://www.lawcore.com/legal-information/10-05-05.html
Keith Tucker http://www.onlinelawyersource.com/news/aclu_suit.html
Kevin Dewayne Wright http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Kevin Geldart http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolo ... 98&k=71652
Kevin M. Downing http://www.upi.com/International_Intell ... nded/6029/
Kevin Omas http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... 74415.html
Larry Noles http://peoplesgeography.com/2006/11/18/ ... e-to-guns/
Lawrence Berry http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Lee Marvin Kimme http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Lieroy Pierson http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Mark C. Backlund http://www.startribune.com/13841301.html
Mark L. Lee http://peoplesgeography.com/2006/11/18/ ... e-to-guns/
Mark Young http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Maury Cunningham http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Michael Anthony Edwards http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Michael Clark http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Michael Critchfield http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Michael Tolosko http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Miguel Serrano http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Milton Woolfolk http://www.gainesvillesun.com/article/ 20071130/NEWS/711300322/1002/NEWS
Muszack Nazaire http://www.fox4florida.com/Global/story.asp?s=6874610
Nazario J. Solorio http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Nickolos Cyrus http://peoplesgeography.com/2006/11/18/ ... e-to-guns/
Olin Holcombe (92 years old) http://www.sptimes.com/2006/04/07/North ... r_sh.shtml
Olsen Ogoddide http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Otis Anderson http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?secti ... id=5879597
Otis G. Thrasher http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Patrick Lee http://www.theppsc.org/forums/showthread.php?t=913
Paul Sheldon Saulnier http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolo ... 98&k=71652
Perry Ronald http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolo ... 98&k=71652
Peter Lamonday http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolo ... 98&k=71652
Quilem Registre http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolo ... 98&k=71652
Randy Martinez http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Ricardo Zaragoza http://symtym.com/2004/11/sudden_taser_death_syndrome/
Richard Alverado http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Richard T. Holcomb http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Ricky Barber http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Robert Bagnell http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolo ... 98&k=71652
Robert Camba http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Robert Dziekanski http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/15 ... ath_video/
Robert Earl Williams http://www.saveourcivilliberties.org/en ... 1188.shtml
Robert Guerrero http://www.infowars.com/print/ps/police_back_tasers.htm
Robert Heston http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Rocky Brison http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Roger Holyfield http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/ar ... read/96724
Roman Andreichikov http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolo ... 98&k=71652
Ronald Alan Hasse http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Ronald Hasse http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... thwest-hed
Ronald Perry http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story ... ml?ref=rss
Russell Walker http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Ryan Rick http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story ... 8&nav=168X
Ryan Wilson http://www.alternet.org/rights/44455/
Samuel Baker http://community.freespeech.org/taser_d ... been_serve
Samuel Truscott http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolo ... 98&k=71652
Sanford Tucker http://taseroftheday.blogspot.com/2008/ ... taser.html
Shawn Norman http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Shawn Pirozzi http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Shirley Andrews http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Stanley Wilson http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Stephen L. Edwards http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/201 ... ths01.html
Steven Cunningham http://www.newswithviews.com/Ryter/jon134.htm
Terrence L. Thomas http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/29/nyreg ... stody.html
Terry Hanna http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolo ... 98&k=71652
Thomas C. Tipton http://www.sptimes.com/2006/04/07/North ... r_sh.shtml
Tim Grant http://www.portlandcopwatch.org/PPR38/shootings38.html
Timothy Bolander http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/conte ... _0102.html
Timothy Michael Torres http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Tracy Rene Shippy http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Vernon A. Young http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ ... 5505140385
William Lomax http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/201827_taser01.html
William Teasley http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/201827_taser01.html
Willie Smith http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/201 ... ths01.html
Willie Towns http://www.azcentral.com/specials/taser (removed due to lawsuit from taser, it was compiled by medical record requests)
Xavier Jones http://www.local10.com/news/15027290/detail.html
Don't wait for your ship to come in, swim out to it...kill the captain...and claim it as yours. : Lodge2004
Re: Safety Of Tasers Called Into Question
Well! the shockee gets up and has a heart attack, that's what!Greybeard wrote:There is an article in June issue of SWAT about 'em.
Author John Chapman seems to think they have their place for LEOs, but is apparently not a big fan of 'em for citizen dependence. He points out that unless you plan to stick around and keep juicing the BG until the calvary arrives to put the cuffs on him, the "shockee" may promptly get back up. Then what?
if you believe that article, that is...
FWIW, IIRC, AFAIK, FTMP, IANAL. YMMV.
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srothstein
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- Posts: 5322
- Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:27 pm
- Location: Luling, TX
Re: Safety Of Tasers Called Into Question
Thank you for the list. I understand that there is not an animosity to officers, just you don't like the one weapon.
Here is where I have a problem with the list. There is a logical eror called "post hoc ergo propter hoc". I think it is being applied in most of these cases. The error is that just because something happens after a specific act, there is no evidence that the act caused the event.
I checked a few of the names on the list at random. In everyone I checked, the person was also on drugs at the time. Was the death caused by the Taser or the drugs? My personal experience with people on drugs leads me to believe they died fromt eh drugs and not the Taser. I fully recognize that this is not proof however. So, here is one I found fairly quickly (and I chose it because it was one the list of removed based on a lawsuit). Brian Lichenstein was tased and then died later. Autopsy shows his death as being due to cocaine toxicity (overdose in common lingo).
http://www.sheriff.martin.fl.us/PressRe ... -29-05.htm
Taser uses an electric shock. Electricty kills mainly in two ways - burns or causing heart arrythmias. Taser is clearly not going to be powerful enough to burn. If the death is not almost immediate, it could not have been caused by the electric shock. That is just the way these things work, in my understanding. Now that does leave some of these detahs still in question, especially those where the person was on drugs and died within a short period after being tased. Did the drugs or the taser cause the heart attack?
And I will admit that the lethality of the taser is truly a separate issue from the improper use. The taser in the class was proper, but I have some problemswith a 7 year old (I will have to look up the incident to be sure though). I have a lot of problems with the one in Florida where they tased a 12 year old girl who tried to run away for the third time (after being handcuffed). I know there is a long list of improper taser deployments that did not result in death or injury. To me, these are use of force and training issues, not a taser issue. We need to keep the two separate.
I still support tasers and I respect your decision not to. I certainly would support mor eresearch, especially by an unbiased source, into how lethal the taser is. The research needs to include both direct and indirect deaths and injuries (like death or injuries by falling after being tased). I think we can both agree that there is a need for a more definitive answer on what the Taser can do.
Here is where I have a problem with the list. There is a logical eror called "post hoc ergo propter hoc". I think it is being applied in most of these cases. The error is that just because something happens after a specific act, there is no evidence that the act caused the event.
I checked a few of the names on the list at random. In everyone I checked, the person was also on drugs at the time. Was the death caused by the Taser or the drugs? My personal experience with people on drugs leads me to believe they died fromt eh drugs and not the Taser. I fully recognize that this is not proof however. So, here is one I found fairly quickly (and I chose it because it was one the list of removed based on a lawsuit). Brian Lichenstein was tased and then died later. Autopsy shows his death as being due to cocaine toxicity (overdose in common lingo).
http://www.sheriff.martin.fl.us/PressRe ... -29-05.htm
Taser uses an electric shock. Electricty kills mainly in two ways - burns or causing heart arrythmias. Taser is clearly not going to be powerful enough to burn. If the death is not almost immediate, it could not have been caused by the electric shock. That is just the way these things work, in my understanding. Now that does leave some of these detahs still in question, especially those where the person was on drugs and died within a short period after being tased. Did the drugs or the taser cause the heart attack?
And I will admit that the lethality of the taser is truly a separate issue from the improper use. The taser in the class was proper, but I have some problemswith a 7 year old (I will have to look up the incident to be sure though). I have a lot of problems with the one in Florida where they tased a 12 year old girl who tried to run away for the third time (after being handcuffed). I know there is a long list of improper taser deployments that did not result in death or injury. To me, these are use of force and training issues, not a taser issue. We need to keep the two separate.
I still support tasers and I respect your decision not to. I certainly would support mor eresearch, especially by an unbiased source, into how lethal the taser is. The research needs to include both direct and indirect deaths and injuries (like death or injuries by falling after being tased). I think we can both agree that there is a need for a more definitive answer on what the Taser can do.
Steve Rothstein
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melkor41
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Re: Safety Of Tasers Called Into Question
There are many who had drugs in their system and there are many who did not. Being shocked or even the threat of being shocked causes all kinds of things to happen to the body. If you read some of the medical reports while the taser is not listed as the primary cause of death, electrocution is often listed as secondary causes.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/15 ... ath_video/
here is a link to the video of one of the more famous of the taser deaths. Guy was in a holding area at customs/immigration at a canadian airport. The guy lost it, he was angry, he barricaded himself into the area. The situation was very dangerous for the officers. The officers enter. ZAAAP. Guy falls to the floor screaming in pain.. ZAAAAP man still cries out withering in uncontrolable pain on the ground.... officer cant get him cuffed because hes moving too much from the pain.... officer shouts HIT HIM AGAIN!!! ZAAAAP man stops screaming... officer yells CODE RED!!! guy is dead.... dead...
as t-bird said... "we killed you!!!...there an't no coming back!... there an't no coming back!...."
I would rather be beaten with a baton than tasered.
While a lot of people would flinch at that tought I will tell you why...
Officer pulls me over... i have never broken any non-traffic laws in my life. Officer wants to search my car, says he sees a bunch of movies on my seat and thinks they are stolen (this all happened before.. up until the next part) I tell him that I just came back from hanging out with some friends watching movies and I took a bunch as I didnt know what they wanted to watch. He asks again to search the car, I refuse. He asks me to step out, I do, I lock the door as I shut the door. Officer gets mad, demands I open the door, I refuse without a warrent, he tasers me. It goes to a jury and they show that I was "not" hurt by the taser and the whole thing is washed away...
Now change that sitation where instead of tasering me he decides he wants to take his fustration out on me with his baton or maglight. First off.... it would take a lot more anger for a reasonable officer to decide to BEAT ME over something like this... It is going to be a lot harder to explain to everyone else why he deicided to beat me.
When I appear before a jury with bruses and cuts and a broken arm do you think their attitude twords the incident will be different than if i just have two small puncture marks and that i "claim" to have muscle pain and neurological issues?
edit: sorry im very passionate about this subject... im going to try to refrain from going on a tangent on it.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/15 ... ath_video/
here is a link to the video of one of the more famous of the taser deaths. Guy was in a holding area at customs/immigration at a canadian airport. The guy lost it, he was angry, he barricaded himself into the area. The situation was very dangerous for the officers. The officers enter. ZAAAP. Guy falls to the floor screaming in pain.. ZAAAAP man still cries out withering in uncontrolable pain on the ground.... officer cant get him cuffed because hes moving too much from the pain.... officer shouts HIT HIM AGAIN!!! ZAAAAP man stops screaming... officer yells CODE RED!!! guy is dead.... dead...
as t-bird said... "we killed you!!!...there an't no coming back!... there an't no coming back!...."
I would rather be beaten with a baton than tasered.
While a lot of people would flinch at that tought I will tell you why...
Officer pulls me over... i have never broken any non-traffic laws in my life. Officer wants to search my car, says he sees a bunch of movies on my seat and thinks they are stolen (this all happened before.. up until the next part) I tell him that I just came back from hanging out with some friends watching movies and I took a bunch as I didnt know what they wanted to watch. He asks again to search the car, I refuse. He asks me to step out, I do, I lock the door as I shut the door. Officer gets mad, demands I open the door, I refuse without a warrent, he tasers me. It goes to a jury and they show that I was "not" hurt by the taser and the whole thing is washed away...
Now change that sitation where instead of tasering me he decides he wants to take his fustration out on me with his baton or maglight. First off.... it would take a lot more anger for a reasonable officer to decide to BEAT ME over something like this... It is going to be a lot harder to explain to everyone else why he deicided to beat me.
When I appear before a jury with bruses and cuts and a broken arm do you think their attitude twords the incident will be different than if i just have two small puncture marks and that i "claim" to have muscle pain and neurological issues?
edit: sorry im very passionate about this subject... im going to try to refrain from going on a tangent on it.
Don't wait for your ship to come in, swim out to it...kill the captain...and claim it as yours. : Lodge2004
Re: Safety Of Tasers Called Into Question
I have to lean srothsteins way on this. Dying after being tasered is only shows a correlation, not a cause-effect, and it is not a very good correlation at that. Dying after ingesting drugs and fighting with the cops is also a correlation, and one with a lot longer history. You would have to show that the incidence of people dying after tasering is significantly higher than dying after other interactions, and control for people in either category having been on drugs (legal and illegal), age, sex, race/ethinicity, activity prior to the altercation, number of cops, number of taserings, number of times hit with a baton/fist/boot etc etc. (BTW, note that on your list of articles, you can be pretty sure that the ones that mention drug use in fact included drug use -- but the ones that don't may not have unearthed that information yet. Newspaper articles are not guaranteed to have ALL the facts.)
Can't point my finger on it right now, but read a few days ago that Taser International (or whatever the company name is) recently won a court-action to force an ME to stop using tasering as a cause of death because there is as yet no scientific basis for doing so. Judges and courts do screw up regularly, but I don't think I am too far off in thinking that most courts are not overwhelming friends of (perceived) big companies.
And I certainly would not want to be whacked with a club! Improper use of a taser is a different animal than "taser causes death." Although like to classifiy force as "non-lethal" an "lethal," any use of force, particularly if repeated, can result in lethality given the right circumstance, say a target person who may have a non-obvious medical condition that makes him paticularly vulnerable in some way.
Can't point my finger on it right now, but read a few days ago that Taser International (or whatever the company name is) recently won a court-action to force an ME to stop using tasering as a cause of death because there is as yet no scientific basis for doing so. Judges and courts do screw up regularly, but I don't think I am too far off in thinking that most courts are not overwhelming friends of (perceived) big companies.
And I certainly would not want to be whacked with a club! Improper use of a taser is a different animal than "taser causes death." Although like to classifiy force as "non-lethal" an "lethal," any use of force, particularly if repeated, can result in lethality given the right circumstance, say a target person who may have a non-obvious medical condition that makes him paticularly vulnerable in some way.
USAF 1982-2005
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melkor41
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:05 pm
- Location: North East Dallas County
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Re: Safety Of Tasers Called Into Question
Taser used to send PR reps to convince MEs to stop putting the fact that the person was tasered *at all* in the reports, many refused.. so they sued.
If i shoot someone in the leg and they survive the immediate gunshot, but a few weeks later die from an infection from a peice of cloth that was blasted into the wound channel from the hollowpoint going through the clothing, would the ME say that the person died from a gunshot? or would they say they died from an infection?
If i shoot someone in the leg and they survive the immediate gunshot, but a few weeks later die from an infection from a peice of cloth that was blasted into the wound channel from the hollowpoint going through the clothing, would the ME say that the person died from a gunshot? or would they say they died from an infection?
Don't wait for your ship to come in, swim out to it...kill the captain...and claim it as yours. : Lodge2004
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casingpoint
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:53 pm
Re: Safety Of Tasers Called Into Question
Coroner: Multiple tasing resulted in death.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi- ... 1847.storyAfter consulting about the case with Dr. Michael Baden, a nationally prominent forensic pathologist, Williams (Winn Parish, LA coroner) ruled last month that Pikes' death was a homicide. On the death certificate, he listed the cause of death as "cardiac arrest following nine 50,000-volt electroshock applications from a conductive electrical weapon."
Re: Safety Of Tasers Called Into Question
I've been tased. I'm healthy as a horse, and I survived. I wanted to know what it feels like and I got my wish... I have no more intentions of testing it any further. 
However, I can definitely understand if someone overweight or with an organ condition die from it.
The taser is a VERY effective weapon, but too often abused as a compliance tool.
That being said, I don't know if I would want to ban them from police hands because they have prevented many situations from escalating to something worse, or even lethal.
However, I can definitely understand if someone overweight or with an organ condition die from it.
The taser is a VERY effective weapon, but too often abused as a compliance tool.
That being said, I don't know if I would want to ban them from police hands because they have prevented many situations from escalating to something worse, or even lethal.
Re: Safety Of Tasers Called Into Question
Like I said... a compliance tool. You did not follow the master's direct order... you will be punished.I would rather be beaten with a baton than tasered.
While a lot of people would flinch at that tought I will tell you why...
Officer pulls me over... i have never broken any non-traffic laws in my life. Officer wants to search my car, says he sees a bunch of movies on my seat and thinks they are stolen (this all happened before.. up until the next part) I tell him that I just came back from hanging out with some friends watching movies and I took a bunch as I didnt know what they wanted to watch. He asks again to search the car, I refuse. He asks me to step out, I do, I lock the door as I shut the door. Officer gets mad, demands I open the door, I refuse without a warrent, he tasers me. It goes to a jury and they show that I was "not" hurt by the taser and the whole thing is washed away...
I'm very passionate about this as well, although you have a much better reason. I don't know how I'd react if I faced what you went through.
