.223 ammunition prices set to increase?

[drw]

My wife read on another forum that .223 prices are going to be going up soon, as the Iraqi military will be switching from 7.62x39 to .223 when they migrate to the M16 platform. Has anybody else heard this? If it's true, I figure it'd be a good idea to load up on a few extra cases of ammo to head off the price increase.

[The Annoyed Man]

I hadn't heard that, but I'm not surprised. I bought my first .223 about 5 or 6 months ago or so - a Bushmaster Varminter - and it was my dumb luck to buy one when ammo was beginning to go for a premium. I plan to start reloading for it soon, so I'll be able to save some money that way, but I don't know how much I'll save, or whether or not components are going to get scarce or not.

[dukalmighty]

With free brass It costs me about 15 cents a round to load .223,but you have to buy bulk bullets and primers powder,I buy the milsurp bullets from wideners.com for 345.00 5000 wfree shipping,powder and primers from powder valley

[M9FAN]

Not to hijack the thread, but where are some of you finding the best prices on .223 / 5.56 ammo currently?

Thanks!

[drw]

Not to hijack the thread, but where are some of you finding the best prices on .223 / 5.56 ammo currently?

Chuckling; that was the next obvious question!

Ammoman has Federal Lake City .223 / 5.56 XM193 55gr. FMJ ammo for $450 for 1,000 rounds. I'm thinking of loading up on a few of those cases.

[Mike1951]

Just bought 600rds of the Prvi M193 from Wideners for $67/200.

Including shipping was $214.

[M9FAN]

Just bought 600rds of the Prvi M193 from Wideners for $67/200.

Including shipping was $214.

Thanks, Mike.

drw, I just bought a 1000 rds. of Prvi Partizan M193 55gr. FMJ from Wideners for $330/1000. (With shipping, the total was $349).

[Skiprr]

Not to hijack the thread, but where are some of you finding the best prices on .223 / 5.56 ammo currently?

You might want to check this site: http://gun-deals.com/ammo.php?caliber=.223. Of the non-Wolf, non-Bear, identified brass casings, the Prvi at Widener's was the best deal. Good buy, M9FAN.

[drw]

The issue with the M193 seems to be that it is 5.56 and shouldn't be fired in a .223 cal firearm. I have both types of arms (including a mini14) and I'd like to buy ammo that I can use in all my 223 type guns.

Am I misunderstanding things?

[M9FAN]

The issue with the M193 seems to be that it is 5.56 and shouldn't be fired in a .223 cal firearm. I have both types of arms (including a mini14) and I'd like to buy ammo that I can use in all my 223 type guns.

Am I misunderstanding things?

Nope, you are correct; you should only fire .223 ammo in a rifle designed only to chamber .223. (My Bushmaster will chamber .223 and 5.56, but I prefer the higher pressure 5.56 ammo).

[drw]

Cabela's has Black Hills .223 Bulk Ammo with Box: 500 rounds for $239.99. That's $480 per thousand, but it's excellent ammo and suitable for long term storage and barter.

[iratollah]

The issue with the M193 seems to be that it is 5.56 and shouldn't be fired in a .223 cal firearm. I have both types of arms (including a mini14) and I'd like to buy ammo that I can use in all my 223 type guns.

Plagiarized from a very credible poster on another forum:

5.56 Nato is a designation of a specific chamber reamer. It is also the NATO designation for the .223 Remington cartridge. Similar to the NATO designation of 7.62 x 51, that you and I know as the .308 WInchester. It has a fairly generous dimension in the base of the case, plus a shallow angle on the leade and a generous amount of freebore. This is to accomodate slightly out of spec ammo and/or crap-grit on the ammo or in the chamber.

The Wylde chamber reamer that is very popular in High Power circles basically copies the 5.56 NATO reamer, but with a slightly different angle on the leade and slightly less freebore.

You often hear people saying you shouldn't fire 5.56 ammo in any .223 chamber. That generally comes from people that haven't ever examined the prints for the various reamers involved.

Whether it is 5.56 ammo, or .223, the bullet is still .224 in diameter. Don't sweat it.

[Mike1951]

Sorry, but I diagree.

Meat of the subject is that 5.56 may be loaded to much higher, even unsafe, pressures than .223.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Similar but not the same…

5.56mm v. 223 Remington
Deconfusing the issues of a couple of differences…
Summer 2007 Advisory: With the increased demands for ammunition… check ammo prices (and availability) lately?… by the U.S. Military and the multi-national "war on terrorism," the regular suppliers of small arms munitions have gone to maximum capacity (double and triple work shifts, etc.) and new resources have been brought on-line. In some instances, Quality Control and Quality Assuance (QC/QA) has suffered, and the issue of 5.56mm v. 223 Remington has taken on a greater significance.

Not to unduly alarm anyone, but as always, "ya pays your money and takes your chances."Almost a quarter of a century ago, SAAMI recognized potential problems with shooters assuming that the 5.56mm cartridge was identical to the commercially available .223 Remington round. Here is their 31 January 1979 release, with some minor errors corrected:

With the appearance of full metal jacket military 5.56 ammunition on the commercial Market, it has come to the attention of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) that the use of military 5.56mm ammunition in sporting rifles chambered for Caliber .223 Remington cartridges can lead to higher-than-normal chamber pressures and possible hazards for the firearm, its user and bystanders.

Tests have confirmed that chamber pressures in a sporting rifle may be significantly higher in the same gun when using military 5.56mm ammunition rather than commercially loaded Caliber .223 Remington cartridges, according to SAAMI.

SAAMI points out that chambers for military rifles have a different throat configuration than chambers for sporting firearms which, together with the full metal jacket of the military projectile, may account for the higher pressures which result when military ammunition is fired in a sporting chamber.

SAAMI recommends that a firearm be fired only with the cartridge for which it is specifically chambered by the manufacturer.
In Rifle Chambered For Do Not Use These Cartridges
223 Remington 5.56mm Military
222 Remington
30 Carbine
Additionally, SAAMI's Unsafe Arms and Ammunition Combinations Technical Data Sheet page states:

The .223 Remington is rated for a maximum of 50,000 CUP while the 5.56mm is rated for 60,000 CUP. That extra 10,000 CUP is likely sufficient to cause a failure in a chamber that's only rated for the "sporting" .223 Remington.

The .223 Remington and the 5.56mm NATO, when checked with a chamber ream from a reliable manufacturer of each, also have discernable differences in the areas of freebore diameter, freebore length (leade) and angle of the throat.

SAAMI
Technical Office:
P.O. Box 338
Branford
CT 06405-0338(Ironically, given the nature of the on-line confusion exhibited by .30 caliber shooters, no similar SAAMI advisory is given concerning 7.62 NATO beyond the fact that those who have rifles chambered in "308 Winchester" shouldn't attempt to shoot cartridges marked "7.62x39" or "300 Savage." Well, duh!)

However, the estimable Clint McKee of Fulton Armory, has thoughtfully provided a brief monograph, The difference between 5.56mm and .223 Remington chambers in the AR-15®-type rifle, which explains this issue in greater (but quite readable) detail.

Olin's Winchester Ammunition site, in 2001, addressed this matter as well, in a concise monograph by Paul Nowak, and Randall Rausch has a number of excellent technical documents, with graphics displaying the differences between the two cartridges, available at AR15barrels.com. Of particular interest are headspace and reamer dimensions.

Further Views on "Differences"
At the October 2001 IALEFI Conference in Reno, Nevada, Giles Stock, retired from Phoenix Police Department after 20 years service, discussed the differences between the .223 Remington/SAAMI and 5.56mm/NATO rifle chambers. The long-time range master for handgun, rifle, carbine and shotgun at Gunsite and developer of the acclaimed Giles Tactical Sling suggested that, as a general rule, recreational rifles have the former, and military rifles the latter… but there is some overlap, most notably in the popular Sturm Ruger Mini-14 which has been offered in both specifications!

NATO chambers have a long leade1. SAAMI chambers are tighter and have a short leade. SAAMI chambers are designed for increased accuracy, but will yield dangerously high pressures in guns using military ammunition and/or which are subject to high volume shooting. Under such high pressures, a primer may back out completely, drop into the action and cause the firearm to stop working.
It has been suggested that an autoloading rifle utilizing a SAAMI-spec chamber may increase risk of overpressure due to the tighter, shorter leade which retards the projectile somewhat as it is attempting to exit the case. Leave the SAMMI chambers to the a bolt action and single-shot rifles.

ArmaLite, not the original, but the Eagle Arms pretenders, has its own views on the subject.

Winchester "White Box" Confusion
This has been making American shooters nuts for a number of years now… particularly in the immediate aftermath of 11 September 2001 when there was a major run on 5.56mm ammunition. Winchester's "generic" or "budget" USA, or "white box," brand of ammunition actually has two different 55-grain FMJ rounds, and one has to look closely at the "small print" to discern the difference.

For openers, in addition to the ATK-operated Lake City plant2, Winchester is also a primary supplier of M193 to the U.S. military. That particular X223R1 round is commercially available in the white USA box product encoded "Q3131." What few realize is that Israeli Military Industries (IMI), the sole supplier of ammo to the Israeli Defense Force (IDF), also supplies their M193 as a subcontractor for Winchester; that round is often made available in the USA white boxes marked "Q3131A." By most reports, qualitatively, it is the same round and performs virtually the same as the home-grown variant.

1.- Leade is the distance the projectile of a chambered round must travel upon ignition before it enters the bore of a barrel. It is measured in thousandths of an inch, and is a datum of considerable interest to benchrest shooters.
2.- The government-owned, contractor-operated Lake City Army Ammunition Plant (LCAAP) in Independence, Missouri, is the largest (458 buildings on 3,935 acres) small-arms manufacturing plant in the world.

Founded in 1941, "Lake City" manufactures and proof-tests small arms (5.56mm - 20mm) munitions. It was initially operated by Remington Arms Company until 1985 when Olin Corporation bid and was awarded the contract to operate the facility. In 1999, Alliant TechSystems (ATK) in conjunction with Federal Cartridge Corporation won a ten-year contract to assume the operations. ATK subsequently acquired Federal Cartridge from Blount Sporting Goods Division.
by Dean Speir, formerly famous gunwriter.
Post questions or comments in The Gun Zone Forum.

[longhorn_92]

Sorry, but I diagree.

Meat of the subject is that 5.56 may be loaded to much higher, even unsafe, pressures than .223.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Similar but not the same…

5.56mm v. 223 Remington
Deconfusing the issues of a couple of differences…
Summer 2007 Advisory: With the increased demands for ammunition… check ammo prices (and availability) lately?… by the U.S. Military and the multi-national "war on terrorism," the regular suppliers of small arms munitions have gone to maximum capacity (double and triple work shifts, etc.) and new resources have been brought on-line. In some instances, Quality Control and Quality Assuance (QC/QA) has suffered, and the issue of 5.56mm v. 223 Remington has taken on a greater significance.

Not to unduly alarm anyone, but as always, "ya pays your money and takes your chances."Almost a quarter of a century ago, SAAMI recognized potential problems with shooters assuming that the 5.56mm cartridge was identical to the commercially available .223 Remington round. Here is their 31 January 1979 release, with some minor errors corrected:

With the appearance of full metal jacket military 5.56 ammunition on the commercial Market, it has come to the attention of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) that the use of military 5.56mm ammunition in sporting rifles chambered for Caliber .223 Remington cartridges can lead to higher-than-normal chamber pressures and possible hazards for the firearm, its user and bystanders.

Tests have confirmed that chamber pressures in a sporting rifle may be significantly higher in the same gun when using military 5.56mm ammunition rather than commercially loaded Caliber .223 Remington cartridges, according to SAAMI.

SAAMI points out that chambers for military rifles have a different throat configuration than chambers for sporting firearms which, together with the full metal jacket of the military projectile, may account for the higher pressures which result when military ammunition is fired in a sporting chamber.

SAAMI recommends that a firearm be fired only with the cartridge for which it is specifically chambered by the manufacturer.
In Rifle Chambered For Do Not Use These Cartridges
223 Remington 5.56mm Military
222 Remington
30 Carbine
Additionally, SAAMI's Unsafe Arms and Ammunition Combinations Technical Data Sheet page states:

The .223 Remington is rated for a maximum of 50,000 CUP while the 5.56mm is rated for 60,000 CUP. That extra 10,000 CUP is likely sufficient to cause a failure in a chamber that's only rated for the "sporting" .223 Remington.

The .223 Remington and the 5.56mm NATO, when checked with a chamber ream from a reliable manufacturer of each, also have discernable differences in the areas of freebore diameter, freebore length (leade) and angle of the throat.

SAAMI
Technical Office:
P.O. Box 338
Branford
CT 06405-0338(Ironically, given the nature of the on-line confusion exhibited by .30 caliber shooters, no similar SAAMI advisory is given concerning 7.62 NATO beyond the fact that those who have rifles chambered in "308 Winchester" shouldn't attempt to shoot cartridges marked "7.62x39" or "300 Savage." Well, duh!)

However, the estimable Clint McKee of Fulton Armory, has thoughtfully provided a brief monograph, The difference between 5.56mm and .223 Remington chambers in the AR-15®-type rifle, which explains this issue in greater (but quite readable) detail.

Olin's Winchester Ammunition site, in 2001, addressed this matter as well, in a concise monograph by Paul Nowak, and Randall Rausch has a number of excellent technical documents, with graphics displaying the differences between the two cartridges, available at AR15barrels.com. Of particular interest are headspace and reamer dimensions.

Further Views on "Differences"
At the October 2001 IALEFI Conference in Reno, Nevada, Giles Stock, retired from Phoenix Police Department after 20 years service, discussed the differences between the .223 Remington/SAAMI and 5.56mm/NATO rifle chambers. The long-time range master for handgun, rifle, carbine and shotgun at Gunsite and developer of the acclaimed Giles Tactical Sling suggested that, as a general rule, recreational rifles have the former, and military rifles the latter… but there is some overlap, most notably in the popular Sturm Ruger Mini-14 which has been offered in both specifications!

NATO chambers have a long leade1. SAAMI chambers are tighter and have a short leade. SAAMI chambers are designed for increased accuracy, but will yield dangerously high pressures in guns using military ammunition and/or which are subject to high volume shooting. Under such high pressures, a primer may back out completely, drop into the action and cause the firearm to stop working.
It has been suggested that an autoloading rifle utilizing a SAAMI-spec chamber may increase risk of overpressure due to the tighter, shorter leade which retards the projectile somewhat as it is attempting to exit the case. Leave the SAMMI chambers to the a bolt action and single-shot rifles.

ArmaLite, not the original, but the Eagle Arms pretenders, has its own views on the subject.

Winchester "White Box" Confusion
This has been making American shooters nuts for a number of years now… particularly in the immediate aftermath of 11 September 2001 when there was a major run on 5.56mm ammunition. Winchester's "generic" or "budget" USA, or "white box," brand of ammunition actually has two different 55-grain FMJ rounds, and one has to look closely at the "small print" to discern the difference.

For openers, in addition to the ATK-operated Lake City plant2, Winchester is also a primary supplier of M193 to the U.S. military. That particular X223R1 round is commercially available in the white USA box product encoded "Q3131." What few realize is that Israeli Military Industries (IMI), the sole supplier of ammo to the Israeli Defense Force (IDF), also supplies their M193 as a subcontractor for Winchester; that round is often made available in the USA white boxes marked "Q3131A." By most reports, qualitatively, it is the same round and performs virtually the same as the home-grown variant.

1.- Leade is the distance the projectile of a chambered round must travel upon ignition before it enters the bore of a barrel. It is measured in thousandths of an inch, and is a datum of considerable interest to benchrest shooters.
2.- The government-owned, contractor-operated Lake City Army Ammunition Plant (LCAAP) in Independence, Missouri, is the largest (458 buildings on 3,935 acres) small-arms manufacturing plant in the world.

Founded in 1941, "Lake City" manufactures and proof-tests small arms (5.56mm - 20mm) munitions. It was initially operated by Remington Arms Company until 1985 when Olin Corporation bid and was awarded the contract to operate the facility. In 1999, Alliant TechSystems (ATK) in conjunction with Federal Cartridge Corporation won a ten-year contract to assume the operations. ATK subsequently acquired Federal Cartridge from Blount Sporting Goods Division.
by Dean Speir, formerly famous gunwriter.
Post questions or comments in The Gun Zone Forum.

I believe Mike1951 to be correct.

[stevie_d_64]

We'all...I've shot plenty of 5.56 and .223 through the one Bushmaster I have that says it'll eat both...No runs, drips or errors...No problemo...

Now as for the Iraqi army and security forces in country...I have a very reliable sourse stating they are happy with their current armaments, and unless a few "special" units who may very well outfit with an M16 variant depending on mission...

She has not mentioned that there is a big push to make any major conversions from the AK platforms to a US type weapon system...She is a senior expediter for the deployed contractors and the military in Iraq for the last 5 years...

But then again her logic is that she believes its safer outside the "green zone"...Go figure that one...