Lasermax and a Kimber ?

[israel67]

What will all this talk of stopping armed robberies or kidnappings etc., I've gone back to check out the lasermax site...

Say you're in one of the situations described on the forum over the past few days. You're at the back of the store checking out some stuff, you hear the 'MONEY OR YOU DIE, [insert expletive of your choice here]!!'

You creep forward, your Kimber in your hand... you slowly peek around the end of the shelf and you see the BG with a sawn-off, his back to you, and a terrified cashier bundling money into a bag.

BG hasn't seen you. He's maybe ten feet from you, still with his back to you. You flick your laser on, take aim. The red dot's on his hair, at the back of his skull.

Question is ... can you miss?

[DoubleJ]

yup. if you don't know how to use a laser, you can miss and hit the cashier.

[Xander]

Question is ... can you miss?

Sure you can. Missing is always as easy as jerking the trigger, and your sights, laser or otherwise, have no bearing on that particular physical action.

[Rokyudai]

Center of mass is your friend if you choose to shoot.

[The Annoyed Man]

Center of mass is your friend if you choose to shoot.

Adrenaline induced loss of hand/eye coordination, pounding heart and shaking hands, any number of variables can and probably will make you miss a shot like that. Besides, what if your hands are shaking enough that your laser dot goes of target and projects onto something that he can see? Now he's onto you.

Center of mass. Center of mass. Center of mass. 2, 3, 4, times or as many more as it takes until the BG is down. It is also more likely to absorb and stop the bullet than a head shot, further reducing the risk to the cashier. Also, I might not necessarily want to take the shot unless I could get a rear angle on the BG, so that he is not directly between me and the cashier.

[HerbM]

BG hasn't seen you. He's maybe ten feet from you, still with his back to you. You flick your laser on, take aim. The red dot's on his hair, at the back of his skull.

Question is ... can you miss?

Of course you CAN miss. Gun might be safed. Gun might not be loaded. Firing pin might be broken. You might choke and not fire. You might choke and mash the trigger. Laser might have been bumped way off (maybe the biggest danger with CARRY lasers). Bullet might not have a primer or power -- squib or dud. etc etc

So: Does you gun work EVERY TIME you have ever fired it? And have you fire it a LOT with the same ammo and without "doing anything" to it? How many computer people have heard "I didn't change a thing, I only ....".

Is the laser (or your sighting method) known correct (at your distance.)

Does it count if you hit him and the bullet goes right on through?

Should you avoid firing (merely) for these reasons? Probably not IF you think firing is justified and necessary (according to your own criteria.)

What's your backup plan if you do miss? What if the gun doesn't fire? Got a plan for that?

(I probably would if I thought the clerk was about to die or I was going to be next, as this is setup, but you have to know there is not such thing as a sure thing in complex, dangerous situations.) And I am not going worry about the CASH in the TILL. That's the company's problem.

[DoubleJ]

Center of mass is your friend if you choose to shoot.

Adrenaline induced loss of hand/eye coordination, pounding heart and shaking hands, any number of variables can and probably will make you miss a shot like that. Besides, what if your hands are shaking enough that your laser dot goes of target and projects onto something that he can see? Now he's onto you.

Center of mass. Center of mass. Center of mass. 2, 3, 4, times or as many more as it takes until the BG is down. It is also more likely to absorb and stop the bullet than a head shot, further reducing the risk to the cashier. Also, I might not necessarily want to take the shot unless I could get a rear angle on the BG, so that he is not directly between me and the cashier.

agreed, but here's a caveat: what if the head is the only thing you can see?? well, then you shoot COM! COM means that you shoot the Center of whatever it is that you can see. (we all know that, but I wanted to reiterate it.) anyone remeber the story of the guy in the apartment that heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night? all he could see was a leg coming in through the window. what'd he do? shot COM! which in this case, was the bg's leg.

here's a slight twist. what if the bg has the gun aimed at the clerk? you want to stop the threat, but you don't want to risk the bg firing off a reactionary shot while he is being "stopped." well, like Massad says, you attack the computer!

course, maybe a better tactic would be to simply wait until the bg's gun is indexed in a safer direction (like the ceiling or floor).

one of the best things that a laser does for you, is to teach you how your aim is affected during a trigger pull.

that, and to play with the cats...

[The Annoyed Man]

that, and to play with the cats...

Oh man, pitty the poor kitty!

I used to wear my cats out with a laser pointer.... Good times!

[israel67]

yup. if you don't know how to use a laser, you can miss and hit the cashier.

Thanks for all the responses. When I asked 'can you miss?', I was really referring to a mechanical problem with the laser, rather than human error. You know, going on the assumption that I've trained with the thing, that I manage to stay reasonably calm etc. My hands don't shake at all, but then to be fair, I've never pointed a loaded pistol at someone before, so who knows how my body would react ..?

I still quite fancy a laser, though...

[DoubleJ]

well, it still leaves open the assumption that the laser is zeroed. you make sure them sights (as Clint Smith would say, you know, since you can) are lined up with the red dot, or you may hit high, low, sideways!






and, is there any other way to get a cat to run up a wall????

[israel67]

here's a slight twist. what if the bg has the gun aimed at the clerk? you want to stop the threat, but you don't want to risk the bg firing off a reactionary shot while he is being "stopped." well, like Massad says, you attack the computer!

Indeed, if you look at the SOP for both the Metropolitan Police's CO19, and the Israeli police, their response when faced with a potential suicide bomber, is to target the head (cf Operation Kratos).

If shooting to the head were likely to make the person detonate his bomb, I'd be surrpised if the police and security forces would aim for it.

I'm pretty sure that a hit to the head from a respectable-sized bullet is going to shut the 'computer' down very, very quickly.

[nemesis]

The red dot's on his hair, at the back of his skull.

Question is ... can you miss?

Yes, you can and I see it regularly on the range.

I, too frequently, see the dancing red dot oscillating on the head of a B-27 and watch it pull deep to the low and left just at firing. The shooters usual reaction is to start adjusting his laser so that it actually will put the bullet on the target when he pulls the trigger but that's just compensating for poor trigger control by aiming the muzzle high and right.

If you shoot well, the laser is a tool, but; if you don't shoot well; the laser won't teach you.

The red dot's on his hair, at the back of his skull.

Yeah, and if you quiver or engage the laser too soon; it's shining on the wall in front of the perp and you're in deep kim-chee.

[DoubleJ]

possibly. it's still iffy, and at this point we're just throwing around theoreticals, like if you shot in the frontal bone, it's more likely with certain calibers to just skip off, rather than penetrate. or if you don't hit the base of the brain, well, it may not shut off the computer, so to speak.

but I think your question got answered.

[israel67]

possibly. it's still iffy, and at this point we're just throwing around theoreticals, like if you shot in the frontal bone, it's more likely with certain calibers to just skip off, rather than penetrate. or if you don't hit the base of the brain, well, it may not shut off the computer, so to speak.

but I think your question got answered.

Yeah more or less, thanks y'all.

Although .... 'skip off' ? I'd be interested in hearing when a .45 ACP round has ever 'skip[ped] off' someone's head ...

[Wildscar]

Although .... 'skip off' ? I'd be interested in hearing when a .45 ACP round has ever 'skip[ped] off' someone's head ...

maybe not skip off but was able to tell about it. Just know that the biggest, baddest bullet might not do the job.Thats why you always need a plan B cause plan A might not work.

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/v ... 12fI45555K