how many of you carry pepper spray

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Mike1951
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Re: how many of you carry pepper spray

Post by Mike1951 »

I'm still looking, but I found this opinion from the 14th Court of Appeals. It doesn't specify what is legal but it rules on what isn't.

If I read this correctly, the court held that 10% concentration labeled for 'Police Use Only' in a large can meets the 'chemical dispensing device' definition while 2% or 3% does not.

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/sta ... 78354.html
A review of the evidence shows that after appellant�s arrest, police found in his possession a large can of OC spray containing 10% oleoresincapsicum solution.� The device was labeled �Law Enforcement Use Only.�� HPD Crime Lab chemist James Miller testified that personal use OC spray is one-half the size of the can found in appellant�s possession and is labeled either 2% or 3% in concentration.� He further testified that the larger cans must be purchased at either a police supply store or over the internet.� Officer Tony Lee testified that one would experience uncontrollable coughing and mild panic if sprayed with 10% OC spray.� Additionally, in order to buy the 10% OC spray, one must present police identification.� Accordingly, we find there is legally sufficient evidence that appellant was in possession of OC spray in violation of section 46.05(a)(8).
�����������Appellant further contends the evidence is factually insufficient because the officers who testified at trial did not know possession of 10% OC spray violated the penal code.� We find appellant�s arguments irrelevant.� Moreover, the fact that appellant was allowed to purchase the can at a police supply store without showing identification does not mitigate culpability for possession of the 10% OC spray.� The OC spray can was sufficiently labeled to put appellant on notice that it was for police use only.� Accordingly, we find the verdict was not against the great weight of the evidence and overrule appellant�s third point of error.
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Re: how many of you carry pepper spray

Post by flb_78 »

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Re: how many of you carry pepper spray

Post by jbirds1210 »

HerbM wrote:
jbirds1210 wrote:My wife and I both carry it. I prefer having OC at the gas pump and a few other flammable places :mrgreen:

I can tell you from personal experience that the stuff hurts...but it does not shut a person down or have them kicking and screaming on the ground like some would like for you to believe. I had a great deal more respect for the stuff until I had to be sprayed with it.

A deadly attack can still be launched by someone that has taken a direct spray of OC. It is a nuisance and I don't expect much else from it.

Many feel that it takes somone on drugs or crazy to not be in immediate, horrible pain...I can honestly say that is not true.

While it can definitely buy you some distance, I would not put all of my stock in it.

Jason
It's worthwhile going to YouTube and searching for "pepper spray" then watch a bunch of the videos, everything from idiots to a (fairly standard looking) Marine exercise where the candidate is first sprayed and the required to run a course of simulated "fighting".

You can work through it if you don't get hit by enough, but it is very hard to see or do much of anything if you do get enough.

No one should expect anything to be 100% effective -- even a center of mass, through and through 12 gauge shotgun (2 o'clock front to 8 o'clock back) has left a criminal able to both FIGHT and ESCAPE (turned himself in with his lawyer the next day.) Don't bet on such things happening but nothing is perfect.

Sometimes though, an early display of aggression or use of non-lethal force can prevent the need to go further.

We have to be smart: Don't use a BB gun on an elephant, nor a .44 Magnum on a toddler.

Use the force required. Shoot until the threat goes away. If it isn't working, try another method. Keep fighting. Make the threat STOP.
I got more experience with it than a video offers :smilelol5: I got sprayed three times in an interval of about five seconds. You should know that if you get enough OC for the symptoms....you can take all that is dished out to you and not much changes. I am not saying you can stand there and drink the stuff, but repeated sprays are like throwing a match on a fire.

MANY people are perfectly capable of taking a hit of this stuff and forcing their eyes open with their fingers enough to get a beautiful sight picture :coolgleamA: .

Remember that a good part of the effect of this stuff is psychological and many crooks have experienced it time after time.

I am not arguing that OC can be an effective tool (I ask my wife at least once a day if she has hers)....I would just be very cautious about putting too much stock in it.

Take care.

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Re: how many of you carry pepper spray

Post by ctxpta »

As both a CHL Instructor AND an OC Instructor....first I do not tell my students to carry or not to carry...that is not our place as instructors! What I inform them of is the way the law reads and how it can be interpreted and what the legal ramifications are if one does.

If it is an OC can other than a key chain size then there is room for argument. A 2 OZ can will spray about 8-10 one second bursts. This is where an argument can be made that it is not a personal defense size. Again, I am not saying you can't or shouldn't I am saying if you do carry then UNDERSTAND you CAN be arrested and may have to have a good Attorney to defend.

As far as the 2%, 3%, 5% and 10% these percentages have more meaning than just how much pepper is in them and are ALSO based on whether the OC is oil based or water based. A 5% oil based spray has the same "hotness" or scovielle heat unit (SHU) number as a 10% water based spray. With the Fox Labs spray...BOTH the 11 gram key chain unit AND the 2oz AND 4 oz have the exact same 2% Oleoresin Capsicum as well as the SAME 5.3 million SHU. Even though the larger size specifically says Law Enforcement Formula does that make the key chain unit illegal as a Law Enforcement Unit since the natural/chemical makeup is the EXACT same?

One thing you will see me constantly try to do the few times I actually respond on this site is give ALL the information and let the person reading it decide. Many of you ONLY see your opinion and your side. Do I have a large 2/3 Oz canister in my vehicle? Yes. Do I understand If an officer wants to push the issue I can be arrested? Yes...I can be arrested for anything! When he asks me what it is far I will say it is for personal defense as a less lethal force option setting the stage for if I do go to court. I would rather ALL my students understand that when you use force of ANY type the games have JUST begun. Your ability to explain why you did what you did and why it was immediately necessary at that moment in time and have 12 others believe you and agree with you can arguably be the second most important part of self defense after saving your life or that of another's.
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Re: how many of you carry pepper spray

Post by agbullet2k1 »

I carry, and have used it several times on various critters around the apartment. Raccoons and possums can be a bit agressive when their food or young ones are around. It's not worth wasting a bullet or having the neighbors call the police when they aren't really out to harm you more than just protect what's theirs on instinct.

I have had to use it on a neighbor's dog before, and since I was good friends with him, it seemed that "repelling" the dog was a lot better than killing it, especially when it was only trying to protect the kids playing in the yard from a "stranger."

My wife practices shooting one handed at the range with "OC" in her other hand, because an OC'd BG doesn't require as much lawyering as a shot one. She'll shoot only if all else fails.
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Re: how many of you carry pepper spray

Post by HerbM »

:iagree: Knowing the facts and hearing opinions is all good stuff as long as we keep these separate.

The following interests me quite a bit too, as even though I use and have studied OC formulas it contains some new information (to me)
ctxpta wrote:As far as the 2%, 3%, 5% and 10% these percentages have more meaning than just how much pepper is in them and are ALSO based on whether the OC is oil based or water based. A 5% oil based spray has the same "hotness" or scovielle heat unit (SHU) number as a 10% water based spray. With the Fox Labs spray...BOTH the 11 gram key chain unit AND the 2oz AND 4 oz have the exact same 2% Oleoresin Capsicum as well as the SAME 5.3 million SHU.
Where can *I* learn about the Oil vs. Water comparisons? (I will search the Internet for that but have done so before without seeing any of this.)

I was under the impression the Scoville measure was of the "pepper" itself (e.g., 2 million SCU) and THEN the pepper (whatever heat it is) was a percentage of the delivered substance (not counting the propellent)? Is this not right?

It's not the way I read the quoted paragraph.

BTW, I recommend ctpxpta's CHL class and the range if you are anywhere near Austin, especially when you need a CHL or renewal class (did my last one there.) Full service, good price, nice folks.
Last edited by HerbM on Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: how many of you carry pepper spray

Post by ctxpta »

HerbM wrote::iagree: Knowing the facts and hearing opinions is all good stuff as long as we keep these separate.

The following interests me quite a bit too, as even though I use and have studied OC formulas it contains some new information (to me)
ctxpta wrote:As far as the 2%, 3%, 5% and 10% these percentages have more meaning than just how much pepper is in them and are ALSO based on whether the OC is oil based or water based. A 5% oil based spray has the same "hotness" or scovielle heat unit (SHU) number as a 10% water based spray. With the Fox Labs spray...BOTH the 11 gram key chain unit AND the 2oz AND 4 oz have the exact same 2% Oleoresin Capsicum as well as the SAME 5.3 million SHU.


Where can *I* learn about the Oil vs. Water comparisons? (I will search the Internet for that but have done so before without seeing any of this.)

I learned this through my instructor training course as it was new to me also. You may have to go to the fact sheets on the different products?? As far as the scoville measure that is the measure of how hot it appears in relationship to other peppers...VERY arbitrary and I have been told it is going to or has become obsolete because of variances. This is done by placing the pepper on the tongue to see how hot it is. Like I said...very arbitrary. To me personally anything past hot is to damn hot and all FEELS the same. The percentage pepper on the other hand is based on the content of pepper in the specific unit in relationship to the other contents like you see in all or most food grade products. Since water dilutes the pepper the water based formulations need more pepper to achieve the same "hotness" of the oil based solutions.

I was under the impression the Scoville measure was of the "pepper" (e.g., 2 million SCU) and THEN the pepper (whatever heat is is) was a percentage of the delivered substance (not counting the propellent)? Is this not right?

I appreciate the recommendation on training. Ross does a great job with the CHL classes and I have been told I do a good job on Security classes. But then again I am biased on that part!

It's not the way I read the quoted paragraph.

BTW, I recommend ctpxpta's CHL class and the range if you are anywhere near Austin, especially when you need a CHL or renewal class (did my last one there.) Full service, good price, nice folks.
Matt Billingsley
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Re: how many of you carry pepper spray

Post by Bart »

This thing looks interesting, especially for the places that have 30.06 signs.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=sEt1iDs7QKk[/youtube]
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Re: how many of you carry pepper spray

Post by Mike1951 »

Anyone see the CSI episode where the out of control prisoner was sprayed and then tased and burst into flames?

Apparently that was a legitimate consern with some alcohol based sprays as many agencies did switch to water based OC.

Not sure about oil based, but here is an interesting page on flammability tests that names names.

http://www.policeone.com/less-lethal/ar ... the-label/

It is unlikely that a non-LEO would ever both spray and tase someone.
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Re: how many of you carry pepper spray

Post by HerbM »

Mike1951 wrote:Anyone see the CSI episode where the out of control prisoner was sprayed and then tased and burst into flames?

Apparently that was a legitimate consern with some alcohol based sprays as many agencies did switch to water based OC.

Not sure about oil based, but here is an interesting page on flammability tests that names names.

http://www.policeone.com/less-lethal/ar ... the-label/

It is unlikely that a non-LEO would ever both spray and tase someone.
The SCENARIOS was likely bogus but there was a CSI (Las Vegas, original version) episode where an alcohol based spray followed by a stun gun or tazor electric spark inflamed a suspect trying to escape the jail.
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Re: how many of you carry pepper spray

Post by Mike1951 »

HerbM wrote:
Mike1951 wrote:Anyone see the CSI episode where the out of control prisoner was sprayed and then tased and burst into flames?

Apparently that was a legitimate consern with some alcohol based sprays as many agencies did switch to water based OC.

Not sure about oil based, but here is an interesting page on flammability tests that names names.

http://www.policeone.com/less-lethal/ar ... the-label/

It is unlikely that a non-LEO would ever both spray and tase someone.
The SCENARIOS was likely bogus but there was a CSI (Las Vegas, original version) episode where an alcohol based spray followed by a stun gun or tazor electric spark inflamed a suspect trying to escape the jail.
Yes, that's what I said.

I just thought folks might be interested because the tests listed by brand name which ones are flammable.
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Re: how many of you carry pepper spray

Post by longhorn_92 »

flb_78 wrote:Image

:anamatedbanana

I love it!

While the BG is sneezing heavily - you can make a quick exit! :biggrinjester:
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Re: how many of you carry pepper spray

Post by pedalman »

Mike1951 wrote:I just thought folks might be interested because the tests listed by brand name which ones are flammable.
I looked on the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for my product. It did not say if it was based on alcohol, oil, or water. But it did specify the following:

Flash Point: 228 degrees F
Auto-Ignition Temperature: 442 degrees F

The replaceable insert contains 13 grams (0.46 ounces).
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Re: how many of you carry pepper spray

Post by ctxpta »

Just FYI for those that are really interested...the flammability part is true and was why the started testing and using the water based formula back in the early 90's or so. The flammability comes more from what is used to get it out of the can and a certain distance etc than it is the oil or water part we have been discussing. I have video and first hand witness of the stuff being sprayed like a flame thrower with one type and another type putting the fire out. You will notice almost if not ALL of the fog/cone type are flammable.
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Re: how many of you carry pepper spray

Post by Roshi »

Call me a sissy but I'm afraid of carrying it because I've never used it or have been trained in it's use.

I'm also concerned that depending on it for defense could get me killed.

My first line of defense is to stay alert and stay away from places where there coulod be problems. The second line is my hangun which i hope will stop the problem without firing it. Last is using the handgun to save a life, mine or my loved ones.

When I can cary a gun, I carry a knife and I' have had knife training. My thoughts, I'm probably stupid for not having yet another option. The wife carries the Kimber pepper spray.
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