Reduce richochet in hallways

[stroo]

DRT and RBCD both claim that some of their rounds will both penetrate glass or car bodies but will fragment when hitting flesh. From criticisms I have seen of the claim by RBCD, plus common sense, I don't believe either company's claim about penetrating glass or car bodies while still fragmenting in flesh. Where frangibles may be a good tool is in a house or building where you may be worried about penetration through walls, like a school. Personally I would not want to use a round that is good for penetrating glass in a school. Nor do I think it a good idea to be shooting through barriers inside a school. If you miss or you are not absolutely sure of what is on the other side of the barrier, you may very well hit kids on the other side of wall. BTW, every round I have ever read tests about will penetrate dry wall to some degree or other. The benefit of frangibles in going through walls is that they are generally pretty light bullets that should slow down a lot going through walls. That may be less true of the DRT since it is a heavier round.

From reports I have seen in various places on the internet, frangibles seem to stop attackers as well as HPs unless they hit the sternum. Similarly, they don't go through barriers very well, which frankly is a large part of the idea of using a frangible.

From some very unscientific testing I did in pork, magsafe, glasers and rbcd will all produce holes with a very big diameter and about 3-7 inches deep with some additional penetration by fragments. These were 9 mm rounds.

[Elvis]

Depends what the walls are made of. If they're standard wood and drywall then .223 should perform good.

.223 For CQB

Reprinted from "Guns & Weapons For Law Enforcement"

By R.K. Taubert

Close Quarter Battle Reputation



Shootout Results

It was late in the morning on a hot July day in 1993, when members of a major Western cites' police tactical unit executed search and arrest warrants in connection with a narcotics raid on a 'biker residence.' The tactical officers were armed with Sig-Sauer 9mm P-226 pistols and 16-inch barreled Steyr Aug .223 caliber carbines with optical sights. The Steyr, loaded per SOP, with twenty-eight Federal 55-grain HP rounds was the primary entry weapon for several officers on the team. Steyr carbines were selected for this raid, because team leaders anticipated shots 'Out to 25 yards.'

The team was required to knock and announce, effectively negating the element of surprise. Approximately 92 seconds into the raid, the officer involved in the following shooting incident was in the process of cuffing a subject when two Rottweiler dogs attacked. While other officers were dealing with the dogs by employing OC aerosol, a 6-foot-tall, 201 -pound subject high on 'speed,' suddenly burst into the room occupied by the police through a locked door and leveled a 9mm pistol at one of the tactical officers. The distance between adversaries was approximately 20 feet With his back essentially to the subject, the involved officer acquired the threat in his peripheral vision, whirled around and commanded. 'Police, put your hands up,' while clearing the Steyr's safety and mounting the weapon. The subject then shifted his pistol, held by one hand in a bladed stance, towards the reacting officer. In 'less than a second' the subject's hostile action was countered by the officer by firing two fast, sighted, tightly controlled pairs, for a total of four rounds at the subject. Rounds one and two missed, but were contained by the structure. Round three connected, penetrated and remained in the subject. Round four grazed his upper chest and exited as he spun and fell. Round three was quickly effective. The collapsing subject ceased all motor movement and expired within 60 seconds. The involved officer was aware of each round fired and simultaneously moved to cover. Tactical members were then confronted by a female accomplice armed with a double-barreled shotgun. However, the involved officer also successfully negotiated her surrender. All .223 rounds that missed the subject struck parts of the buildings internal structure, fragmented and remained inside.

When the autopsy was performed, the forensic pathologist was amazed at the degree of internal devastation caused by the 223 round. There was a two-inch void of tissue in change chest with a literal 'snowstorm' of bullet fragments and secondary bone fragments throughout the upper left chest area. The round struck the subject I I inches below the top of his head and inflicted the following wounds:

Penetrated the top of the left lung, left carotid and subclavian arteries.
The collar bone and first rib were broken. Cavity measured 5 x 6 centimeters.
What is significant about this 'instant one shot stop' was that the round did not strike the subject at the most effective or optimum angle for penetration and did not involve any direct contact with the heart or central nervous system. It is doubtful that this type of terminal ballistic performance could have been achieved by any of the police service pistol/SMG rounds currently in use.

Although this is only one incident and could be an aberration, police tactical teams require this type of terminal ballistic performance to enhance their safety and survival particularly during CQB engagements, where criminals most often enjoy a positional and action-versus-reaction time advantage.

The FBI study clearly demonstrates the following: (1) that .223 rounds on average, penetrate less human tissue at dose range than the hollow point pistol rounds evaluated, (2) concern for over-penetration of the .223 round, at close range, has been greatly exaggerated, (3) with the exception of soft ballistic garment penetration. the .223 round appears to be relatively safer for employment in CQB events than this hollow point pistol bullets tested.

Observations and experience indicate that high velocity rifle buffets generally produce more serious wounds in tissue than pistol bullets. regardless of range.

Violent temporary cavitation, in conjunction with bullet yaw and fragmentation, are essential wounding components for high velocity rifle projectiles.

As range and bullet stability increases and velocity decreases, rifle caliber wound severity decreases and penetration increases.

Where soft target penetration requirements exist and over-penetration concerns are prevalent, police should employ hollow point bullets in this caliber.

Full metal case or heavier soft point bullets may be more appropriate for hard target penetration in this caliber.

The .223 and the current carbine systems available for it are highly versatile and well suited for urban as well as rural operations. However, because of enhanced terminal ballistic performance. Rifles are recommended if targets are expected to be engaged beyond 200 meters.

The ability to train with one shoulder weapon and caliber for both CQB and open air options simplifies logistics and training, makes training more efficient and is cost effective.

Under current pricing, police agencies can realize significant savings by purchasing single-fire carbines instead of select-fire submachine guns.

Because of 'political' considerations; and perhaps concern over the possibility of more serious injuries caused by errant 'friendly fire,' the highly versatile and powerful .223 carbine may not be a suitable COB firearm far some departments. However, if the above factors are not involved, the .223 carbine is an extremely flexible and effective antipersonnel weapon with, in many cases, handling characteristics actually superior to many contemporary SMGs. It offers the advantages of reduced logistics, lower costs and reduced training time when compared to agencies employing multiple specialty weapons. The caliber in its current offerings is far from perfect but in spite of some shortcomings, I anticipate that in the future it will eventually replace pistol caliber SMGs in many police departments and law enforcement agencies.

[Supercat]

What about not missing the bad guy?

[tboesche]

Depends what the walls are made of. If they're standard wood and drywall then .223 should perform good.

Speaking from experience, a .223 will pass thru a mattress, a wall, 5 of my mothers evening dresses, another wall and then desintegrate when it hits an antique steemer trunk.

[KC5AV]

Depends what the walls are made of. If they're standard wood and drywall then .223 should perform good.

Speaking from experience, a .223 will pass thru a mattress, a wall, 5 of my mothers evening dresses, another wall and then desintegrate when it hits an antique steemer trunk.

[Liko81]

Basically they should use ammunition that fragments or expands when it hits drywall or concrete. Of course you need a hollowpoint, so this restriction means no wadcutters, FMJ or soft lead. You need a premium hollowpoint or a frangible round, because with a traditional HP the powdery gypsum composite in the drywall fills the point without expanding it, turning it into a wadcutter, and most bullets will ricochet dangerously if they hit concrete obliquely. Newer HP designs like the Federal HST and Ranger SXTs that expand into the tentacle looking things rather than mushing into a larger donut will not penetrate through as many drywall walls, and frangibles like Glasers will turn into birdshot when they hit concrete or drywall.

Now, none of these will immediately become harmless as soon as they hit a non-target. Birdshot can still injure or blind (it is unlikely to kill) and a round that glances off a concrete piling or expands through a sheet rock wall can easily kill. The key here is "reduce", and modern HPs and frangibles do far better than FMJs, wadcutters and soft leads.

[WildBill]

The key here is "reduce", and modern HPs and frangibles do far better than FMJs, wadcutters and soft leads.

As a secondary function [breaking up and reducing ricochets] frangibles probably do a better job, but I am not convinced they do a good enough job of their primary function. Based on what I have read, I would not use them for this type of scenario.

[dukalmighty]

Depends what the walls are made of. If they're standard wood and drywall then .223 should perform good.

Speaking from experience, a .223 will pass thru a mattress, a wall, 5 of my mothers evening dresses, another wall and then desintegrate when it hits an antique steemer trunk.

I guess the old holy cow that was one hungry moth story didn't fly

[Excaliber]

The key here is "reduce", and modern HPs and frangibles do far better than FMJs, wadcutters and soft leads.

As a secondary function [breaking up and reducing ricochets] frangibles probably do a better job, but I am not convinced they do a good enough job of their primary function. Based on what I have read, I would not use them for this type of scenario.

Ricochets are an overrated hazard here, and using specialty rounds that have severe limitations in the primary mission of stopping the bad guy are an overrated solution. You'll note that ricochet has never been a consideration in law enforcement ammunition testing (except when testing ammo to see how intentional ricochets could be used tactically ) because it's not a significant real life problem.

My recommendation:

Use a premium hollowpoint and follow rule 4 regarding being sure of the target, taking into account what's behind it and where the round will go if one misses.

[longhorn_92]

The key here is "reduce", and modern HPs and frangibles do far better than FMJs, wadcutters and soft leads.

As a secondary function [breaking up and reducing ricochets] frangibles probably do a better job, but I am not convinced they do a good enough job of their primary function. Based on what I have read, I would not use them for this type of scenario.

Ricochets are an overrated hazard here, and using specialty rounds that have severe limitations in the primary mission of stopping the bad guy are an overrated solution. You'll note that ricochet has never been a consideration in law enforcement ammunition testing (except when testing ammo to see how intentional ricochets could be used tactically ) because it's not a significant real life problem.

My recommendation:

Use a premium hollowpoint and follow rule 4 regarding being sure of the target, taking into account what's behind it and where the round will go if one misses.

[Liberty]

Ricochets are an overrated hazard here, and using specialty rounds that have severe limitations in the primary mission of stopping the bad guy are an overrated solution. You'll note that ricochet has never been a consideration in law enforcement ammunition testing (except when testing ammo to see how intentional ricochets could be used tactically ) because it's not a significant real life problem.

My recommendation:

Use a premium hollowpoint and follow rule 4 regarding being sure of the target, taking into account what's behind it and where the round will go if one misses.

I tend to agree with you, but like all decisions made by a committee (the school board in this case) objections are made and compromises made. Conceding the ricochet issue and addressing it with frangibles is a very minor point. Basically that is what the policy is, not hollowpoints but frangibles. I think we will all agree that getting a school board to agree and being the first school district in the country to have an open and self defence friendly policy. David Thweatt is a master politician, at least as a spokesman. I've watched this guy go against some pretty hostile in reviews. All of these interviews have left the most skeptical believing that maybe he has a point.

If I were a Harold staff member I would be joyously marching to my favorite ammo store and buying up lots of frangibles, the fact that its not my prefered self defence ammo wouldn't enter my mind. Maybe next year though

[hankintexas]

I'm curious? If you are shooting in a hallway made of concrete, on concrete floors, what won't richochet? Seems to me the best policy is to hit what you shoot at?