Psycho hammers subway passenger

[fm2]

Yet another example that shows because there are a lot of people around you and a camera, it doesn't make you any safer. Watch the video, that's what the SEPTA monitors did for 5 LONG minutes, then the attacker ran off, with a little kid in tow, before any authorities showed up. You'll see, severe initiative deficit, BG starts hammer in hand, assault starts at close range, confined space, grounded victim, and some clinch range work.

Psycho hammers subway passenger
By DAVID GAMBACORTA
Philadelphia Daily News

gambacd@phillynews.com 215-854-5994

As the SEPTA subway train rocked forward, a thirty-something guy leaned over near the doorway and gently planted a kiss on the little boy at his side.
When the train neared the Fairmount Avenue stop shortly after midnight on Thursday, the man reached out like an adoring parent and directed the 3- or 4-year-old tyke to an open seat.

Then he flew into a monstrous rage.

Without uttering a word, police said, the unidentified man whipped out a double-claw hammer and began bludgeoning a 20-year-old man who was dozing off in his seat.

For five long minutes, SEPTA surveillance cameras captured the deranged attacker - who was still on the loose late last night- digging his hammer into the man's head and neck.

Through it all, disgusted investigators said, at least 10 passengers stood by and did nothing as the random attack moved from the train to the platform, when the hammer-wielding maniac tried to push his victim down onto the train tracks.

When the beating was finished and the suspect fled with the little boy, the victim staggered back onto the train, bloodied, confused and alone, said Detective Kenneth Roach, of Central Detectives.

And even then, no one tried to help him.

"Somebody should have helped this guy," Roach said. "I understand the [other] guy had a hammer, but they outnumbered him at least 10 to one."

Miraculously, the victim took the subway up to Temple University Hospital, received several staples and sutures and was discharged, Roach said.

The motive remains a mystery.

"I'm baffled," Roach said. "He had no reason to do that. It was unprovoked. The victim was just going home from work, minding his own business, listening to his iPod."

Roach said that the victim, whose name was not released, boarded the subway at City Hall.

The attacker - a bearded, stocky, 5-foot-9-inch black man who wore a yellow shirt and black pants - also got on at City Hall, with a youngster who may or may not be his child.

The victim and the hammer-toting psychopath never exchanged a word or a glance, Roach said.
My emphasis added: The attacker sure looked around the train, and at the victim before he started!


"According to the victim, there was no contact or verbal discussion," he said. "They didn't even notice each other." My emphasis added: The attacker sure as heck "noticed" a victim!

The hammer was hidden in a black-and-yellow book bag that the attacker clutched throughout the short subway ride.

The little boy dashed off the train with the other passengers during the brutal beat-down, but was later seen running back on to recover the book bag. The boy and the suspect are seen on camera leaving together.

Roach described the attacker as "very dangerous" and asked anyone who knows him to contact police at 215-686-3093 or -3094. *

Source: http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_up ... enger.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Venus Pax]

I'm not surprised at this. Criminals do not expect to be challenged.

[srothstein]

Just to be a little more fair to the SEPTA employees and authorities, the attack was on a moving subway train. The people watching the monitors are not on the train but at a main office. The police have to be sent to the station as the train is headed there.

The lag time between the police being notified and their arriving is why I recommend carrying a weapon for self defense. The saying about cops being minutes away when seconds count is obviously true in this case.

And there is no excuse I know of for the passengers standing by, except for the proximity of Philadelphia to New York City (remember Kitty Genovese?).

And I wonder if we will not have to deal with this in the future. If the little boy saw it and helped, he will learn to do the same thing when he is older. Actually, I wonder how long until we do, not if we will have to deal with the child.

[anygunanywhere]

Through it all, disgusted investigators said, at least 10 passengers stood by and did nothing as the random attack moved from the train to the platform, when the hammer-wielding maniac tried to push his victim down onto the train tracks.

The investigators are disgusted as unarmed passengers do not take action against a lunatic?

Please tell me exactly who these armchair investigators think they are?

Would they take on a claw hammer looney unarmed?

I doubt it.

Anygunanywhere

[Excaliber]

Through it all, disgusted investigators said, at least 10 passengers stood by and did nothing as the random attack moved from the train to the platform, when the hammer-wielding maniac tried to push his victim down onto the train tracks.

The investigators are disgusted as unarmed passengers do not take action against a lunatic?

Please tell me exactly who these armchair investigators think they are?

Would they take on a claw hammer looney unarmed?

I doubt it.

Anygunanywhere

I respectfully beg to differ.

I suspect that the investigators were disgusted at the inaction of the other passengers because they are sheepdogs and I am certain that, to a man, they would have acted to stop the attack if they had been there, armed or not. I think they had excellent grounds to feel as they did about the sheep on the train.

I don't know how many violent felony scenes you've investigated when the blood was still wet, how many HIV/HBV infected suspects you've gone hand to hand with, how many times you've been patched up in the emergency room afterwards, or how many psychopaths you've put in jail, but I respectfully suggest that you are not being fair to the officers here. They were as outraged as you are at what they saw, and they are clearly not "armchair investigators". They are out in the trenches of major city dealing with extremely violent offenders every day. It's easy to be a critic from one's armchair when one hasn't walked in the other guy's shoes - sorta like shouting in your living room at those stupid professional quarterbacks on TV.

In this case the officers responded to and are actively investigating a serious felony and will actively pursue and arrest the suspect. That arrest may well involve another physical altercation that would present a risk of injury to officers. Given the video and publicity, there is an excellent chance they will take the responsible party into custody and bring him before the courts. What more could you ask of them?

[anygunanywhere]

Through it all, disgusted investigators said, at least 10 passengers stood by and did nothing as the random attack moved from the train to the platform, when the hammer-wielding maniac tried to push his victim down onto the train tracks.

The investigators are disgusted as unarmed passengers do not take action against a lunatic?

Please tell me exactly who these armchair investigators think they are?

Would they take on a claw hammer looney unarmed?

I doubt it.

Anygunanywhere

I think I can answer that. The investigators were disgusted because they are sheepdogs and would have acted, armed or not.

The folks on the train were sheep.

The officers are clearly not "armchair investigators" because they responded to and are actively investigating a serious felony and will do their best to arrest the suspect. Given the video and publicity, there is an excellent chance they will bring him before the courts. This is not the same as being able to protect someone who is being attacked from being hurt when they are not present to do so. I can't blame them for that - I haven't mastered that trick either.

The City of Philadelphia and the Philadelphia PD actively oppose Pennsylvania's concealed carry laws and actively harass licensed ppermit holders.

My remarks were aimed at these facts. Since the PPD actively harass and restrict concealed carry how do they expect unarmed citizens (subjects?) to defend themselves against a hammer wielding attacker?

You use the term "sheepdog" in this instance in the wrong context. The PPD far and away do not deserve the term "sheepdog". They are the wolves themselves. The Philadelphia mayor and police chief are as much to blame for the people's lack of response and deserve to be "brought before the courts" as well. They disgust me.

If there is any city in America besides DC that needs more armed citizens it is Philadelphia. Been there. Done the cheesesteak. I was armed.

Anygunanywhere

[Excaliber]

The City of Philadelphia and the Philadelphia PD actively oppose Pennsylvania's concealed carry laws and actively harass licensed ppermit holders.

My remarks were aimed at these facts. Since the PPD actively harass and restrict concealed carry how do they expect unarmed citizens (subjects?) to defend themselves against a hammer wielding attacker?

You use the term "sheepdog" in this instance in the wrong context. The PPD far and away do not deserve the term "sheepdog". They are the wolves themselves. The Philadelphia mayor and police chief are as much to blame for the people's lack of response and deserve to be "brought before the courts" as well. They disgust me.

If there is any city in America besides DC that needs more armed citizens it is Philadelphia. Been there. Done the cheesesteak. I was armed.

Well, we've got three issues here:

- Philadelphia's opposition to concealed carry
- The distinction between the city's political and law enforcement leadership and the
officers on the line
- The willingness of citizens to come to the aid of others when attacked

Philadelphia's stance in opposition to concealed carry unquestionably leaves citizens highly vulnerable to violent predators. There's nothing good that can be said about that.

The mayor is elected by the citizens. He either delivers what they want, or they replace him. Since he's still there, ultimate responsibility for how he governs lies with those who put him in office in the first place.

I don't know if the chief's position there is civil service or appointed, but in either case the candidate who is most willing to toe the line on what the city fathers would like to do has the best chance of getting the job. He keeps it by continuing to toe the line. There are very few nonpolitical chiefs in big city law enforcement positions.

Line officers very often hold very different beliefs than than their chiefs. It's hard to take an ivory tower approach when your hands are in the mud every day. It would be quite unfair to paint an entire department with a broad brush based only on the publicized positions of a mayor and police chief. The guys in the trenches are a different breed.

The willingness to come to the defense of another is a much more complicated situation. When confronted with a sudden crisis, a large majority of folks freeze or wait for someone to tell them what to do. Only those who have either been trained or have prepared themselves for handling crises act quickly and decisively. We recently saw another instance of this in the forum posted video of a subject being severely beaten in front of a number of other patrons who did not intervene in an eatery. It's hard to discern lack of preparation from cowardice from deliberate indifference from a conscious decision that one is not equipped to intervene. In the subway case, it would have been very doable for two or more passengers to restrain an individual armed only with a contact weapon (hammer). I would not expect to see that type of passivity if the incident occurred in Texas.

[anygunanywhere]

It's hard to discern lack of preparation from cowardice from deliberate indifference from a conscious decision that one is not equipped to intervene. In the subway case, it would have been very doable for two or more passengers to restrain an individual armed only with a contact weapon (hammer). I would not expect to see that type of passivity if the incident occurred in Texas.

I would be willing to bet that this type of behavior happens all the time in Texas.

Anygunanywhere

[Excaliber]

It's hard to discern lack of preparation from cowardice from deliberate indifference from a conscious decision that one is not equipped to intervene. In the subway case, it would have been very doable for two or more passengers to restrain an individual armed only with a contact weapon (hammer). I would not expect to see that type of passivity if the incident occurred in Texas.

I would be willing to bet that this type of behavior happens all the time in Texas.

Anygunanywhere

On an individual basis, I would agree. But I would be surprised if no one in a group of 10 Texans would act under similar circumstances. I see a lot more Good Samaritan interventions here than I have anywhere else I've lived.

On a positive note, the investigators have done their jobs and the suspect in the attack that started this post has already been arrested. The full story appears here.

[CompVest]

It is not a fair comparison. You can bet that several Texan in a group of ten would be armed and so the mental prep work to take action has been done by several of them. This changes things a lot. When you are in a place that removes personal responsibilty for your safety and others from your mental game it makes it a lot harder to react.

Please know that I am not supporting any view here nor trying to give an accuse for inaction but I recognize that it can happen and does when people are not empowered.

I hope that I am able to act if necessary. I pray to God that I never am in a situation to find out.

[Purplehood]

[Excaliber]

It is not a fair comparison. You can bet that several Texan in a group of ten would be armed and so the mental prep work to take action has been done by several of them. This changes things a lot. When you are in a place that removes personal responsibilty for your safety and others from your mental game it makes it a lot harder to react.

Please know that I am not supporting any view here nor trying to give an accuse for inaction but I recognize that it can happen and does when people are not empowered.

I hope that I am able to act if necessary. I pray to God that I never am in a situation to find out.

When I spoke about my expectations that Texans would be more likely to come to the aid of someone in need, I was referring to the much more self reliant and personally responsible mindset here, not the number of armed Texans. When I travel to different areas of the country (or to other countries) as I often do and then come home, the difference is really striking. I've seen armed and unarmed Good Samaritans take action in many places, but the frequency appears to be much greater here. That's a very good thing and another good reason to live here.

I also would not expect that, in a group of 10 Texans, more than 1 would be armed. It is unlikely that even one would be. Here's the math:

Texas population: Approximately 23,500,000
CHL Holders: Approximately 300,000
Percentage of CHL holders in the population: Approximately 1.3%

This means in a group of 100 Texans, you could expect that, on average, one of them might be a CHL holder. As we know, that doesn't necessarily mean that he or she would be armed, because many CHL holders only carry when they "need" to (Heaven knows how they figure that out. I haven't.)

That means that in a group of 10 random Texans (one tenth of one hundred), there is only a one tenth of one percent chance that one of them is a CHL holder who may or may not be armed at the time. I sure wouldn't put any money on that one (unless that group was standing outside the local shooting emporium.)

I also do not believe that there are any places where people without a full time protection team can have the personal responsibility for their safety removed by anyone. Folks may not be aware that they are responsible. They may believe that the police or someone or something else will always keep them from harm. They may hold these beliefs in good faith because they have been communicated by teachers, relatives, or persons in positions of political power or law enforcement. However, when violence confronts them, the fact is that what they've got right then and there and what they do with it is going to determine the outcome, regardless of where they live. They alone are responsible for whether they choose to act or fail to act at that moment, whether they have the best tools or a tactical advantage - or not. That situation can't be altered by either perception or deception by themselves or anyone else.

The ability to lawfully carry the best available means to the most essential liberty, the right to effectively protect oneself and one's family from physical harm, is another matter. Government at various levels can most certainly interfere and make it difficult and disadvantageous to prepare to deal with criminal violence, as is the case in Philadelphia. That is an immoral situation which should be rectified through vigorous application of the rights to speak the truth, advocate change, and vote as Texans did to get the CHL and castle doctrine provisions we enjoy codified into the law.

[srothstein]

On an individual basis, I would agree. But I would be surprised if no one in a group of 10 Texans would act under similar circumstances. I see a lot more Good Samaritan interventions here than I have anywhere else I've lived.

I would not be surprised if a group of ten Texans stood by and did nothing, though i would be surprised if it was just one or two and they did nothing. There have been some very itneresting psychological studies done on this subject since Kitty Genovese. One of the more interesting findings has been the one tha says that a group of people is more likely to stand and watch than one or two people. It seems like groups want a leader. They will all stand by thinking someone else will do something until it is too late. But, if one person does take action, the rest of the group is very likely to join in and help. The latter part is especially true if the one taking action start also giving orders.

And, the larger the group, the more likely it is that all will stand by and watch. I don't think there have been any really decent explanations of the phenomenon, just the repeated proof that it exists. And the whole think does make people look more and more like sheep waiting on a sheepdog.

[Excaliber]

On an individual basis, I would agree. But I would be surprised if no one in a group of 10 Texans would act under similar circumstances. I see a lot more Good Samaritan interventions here than I have anywhere else I've lived.

I would not be surprised if a group of ten Texans stood by and did nothing, though i would be surprised if it was just one or two and they did nothing. There have been some very itneresting psychological studies done on this subject since Kitty Genovese. One of the more interesting findings has been the one tha says that a group of people is more likely to stand and watch than one or two people. It seems like groups want a leader. They will all stand by thinking someone else will do something until it is too late. But, if one person does take action, the rest of the group is very likely to join in and help. The latter part is especially true if the one taking action start also giving orders.

And, the larger the group, the more likely it is that all will stand by and watch. I don't think there have been any really decent explanations of the phenomenon, just the repeated proof that it exists. And the whole think does make people look more and more like sheep waiting on a sheepdog.

I suspect that these phenomena are related to how people respond to any unexpected emergency. In studies of plane crashes, ship sinkings, the World Trade Center attack, and other similar events, it has been found that a certain percentage of folks "freeze", another large group engages in random tasks that don't address the threat, another large group becomes passive and waits for "something" but responds well to someone who takes command, gives orders, and leads, and a small percentage of trained or otherwise prepared individuals (sheepdogs) take effective action themselves and/or lead the group to do so. If a group doesn't contain one of the action folks, it is likely that no one will address the problem effectively.

I'm quite interested in this area and have a lot of new reading material on order because it has a direct impact on effective emergency planning.

[casingpoint]

This was a situation ideal for a garote. Now, if someone had used one on the attacker, most probably resulting in his death, those same Philly cops would be saying now of the defender, "Book him for murder." Trust me. It's East Coast all the way up there.