Buying To Resell

[wgoforth]

I am a Texas resident. As a hobby, I recently bought 10 guns in disrepair to learn how to work on them. I am selling them as I repair them, making little to nothing, mostly just covering the expenses and maybe $20 on a couple of them. I am not sending them out of state, just to people I know within Texas. My question is not really about the selling as such, but I guess more about the buying to resell.
is there a limit I can buy and sell before I need to worry about ATF showing up at my door? I know when you buy more than one at a time, which I did, your on an FBI watch list. I am not doing this for a living at all, and would like to buy about 5-10 more to do the same... but if I have to worry about getting in trouble with the Feds, it's certainly not worth it. I have tried to research via the web, and the answers I found sounded subjective like "cannot sell consistently" or "cannot buy a lot? etc...sounds like its up to the individual to determine. Does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks for your insight!
Wayne

[boomerang]

IANAL but I think ATF might consider you engaged in the business based on your description of your activities.

27 CFR 478.11
Dealer. Any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail; any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; or any person who is a pawnbroker. The term shall include any person who engages in such business or occupation on a part-time basis.

[wgoforth]

I know you can sell as a "hobby" I just can't find anything that distinguishes hobby from business. The local gun shop and the ATF office in Lubbock have simply said as long as I don't buy "too many" and sell "too many" for "too regularly" then I'm ok. I don't like nebulous terms like that. Anyone have more specifics I can work with? I;m sure we have all sold guns, what distinguishes it from a business/
Thanks

[AEA]

I know when you buy more than one at a time, which I did, your on an FBI watch list.

I would like to know why you think this is true?

In Texas, if you are a CHL holder and you buy from a FFL, you fill out the form and no calls are made. You take the gun (or guns) home. The FFL does not send any forms to ATF or the FBI and the one you signed is destroyed by the FFL in 12 or 24 Months (can't remember how long).

If you buy from an individual there is no paper record required at all.

So, tell me how the ATF or FBI puts you on a "List" if you purchase more than one gun at a time?

[anygunanywhere]

I know when you buy more than one at a time, which I did, your on an FBI watch list.

I would like to know why you think this is true?

In Texas, if you are a CHL holder and you buy from a FFL, you fill out the form and no calls are made. You take the gun (or guns) home. The FFL does not send any forms to ATF or the FBI and the one you signed is destroyed by the FFL in 12 or 24 Months (can't remember how long).

If you buy from an individual there is no paper record required at all.

So, tell me how the ATF or FBI puts you on a "List" if you purchase more than one gun at a time?

If you make multiple handgun purchases withinin a week (I think) the FFL submts a special form to ATF informing them of the purchase.

Anygunanywhere

[AEA]

I have never heard anything like this before in my life!

Either both of you are wrong or I have had my head in the sand for quite awhile........

In any case, easy to circumvent that logic as a CHL Holder in Texas.......
Just buy from different FFL's.

I guess the next thing someone is gonna tell me is that when I buy 5000 rounds of ammo at one time my name goes on a "List" as well........

[anygunanywhere]

I have never heard anything like this before in my life!

Either both of you are wrong or I have had my head in the sand for quite awhile........

In any case, easy to circumvent that logic as a CHL Holder in Texas.......
Just buy from different FFL's.

I guess the next thing someone is gonna tell me is that when I buy 5000 rounds of ammo at one time my name goes on a "List" as well........

The multiple pistol purchase rule was in effect back in the late 1980s when I had my FFL. It is not a recent rule. I no longer have the FFL.

I have had multiple pistols arrive at an FFL at the same time from different dealers. I just picked them up 10 days apart.

Anygunanywhere

[AEA]

OK, thanks for that info.....

Any current FFL holders here can confirm that you send a report to ATF or FBI if I, as a Texas CHL holder, buy multiple pistols from or through you at the same time?

And if you do send a report that puts my name on a "List" somewhere, what are the requirements for you to fill out and submit that form? Two pistols, five pistols, twenty pistols? Within how many days? And who do you send the report to?

[KaiserB]

I know you can sell as a "hobby" I just can't find anything that distinguishes hobby from business. The local gun shop and the ATF office in Lubbock have simply said as long as I don't buy "too many" and sell "too many" for "too regularly" then I'm ok. I don't like nebulous terms like that. Anyone have more specifics I can work with? I;m sure we have all sold guns, what distinguishes it from a business/
Thanks

The problem is the ATF used terms with NO technical specificity such as "too many" and "too regularly." This can be dangerous for you as the determination is left to the interpretation of the ATF. The station chief at that particular ATF may find that 30 weapons a year is acceptable. However, if the station chief changes; the new one may determine 3 weapons a year is too many and you are in trouble.

[KaiserB]

OK, thanks for that info.....

Any current FFL holders here can confirm that you send a report to ATF or FBI if I, as a Texas CHL holder, buy multiple pistols from or through you at the same time?

And if you do send a report that puts my name on a "List" somewhere, what are the requirements for you to fill out and submit that form? Two pistols, five pistols, twenty pistols? Within how many days? And who do you send the report to?

The reporting is the same type of reporting banks do when you deposit or withdraw $10,000 or more in a single transaction. It is the FBI way of tracking possible criminal activity, as normal people do not often buy, say 5 guns at a time, or withdraw $30K in cash.

[seamusTX]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#f5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The trip point is two handguns within five business days, and the report goes to your local or state police and BATFE.

The original question here of how many transactions constitute being "in the business" has always been a gray area. I won't discuss the political reasons for that.

- Jim

[MBGuy]

Exactly as Jim said is what the FFL I just used said when I told him I had two coming in. It was news to me too but I didn't investigate as they wouldn't have arrived within 5 days of each other anyway as one was private deal and I hadn't sent the money order yet, but I found it quite interesting.

[wgoforth]

thanks everyone for responses... since i bought 5 at once, then resold them all to friends after working on them, should i be concerned about ATF showing up at my door? i dont plan to do this again, i actually thought i could legally do this as a hobby in TX as long as i wasn't making money.

[seamusTX]

I think you would get the dreaded knock on the door only if one of the firearms that you resold was later used in a crime. There are too many honest people doing this kind of thing for BATFE to be checking into all of them.

This is a reason not to sell traceable firearms to strangers, or to sell only to people who have a CHL.

I have heard some credible accounts of people who were questioned by the police about a weapon that they had sold or had stolen, that was later used in a crime. The police accepted their explanations. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt still has meaning in this country.

- Jim

[AEA]

Thanks all,

I know I will be buying from multiple FFL's for multiple purchases in the future. Let 'em get around that one......

Turning a law abiding citizen into somewhat of a criminal again...........