One less thug

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton

WarHawk-AVG
Senior Member
Posts: 1403
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:05 pm

Re: One less thug

Post by WarHawk-AVG »

seamusTX wrote:The dog doesn't need a walk at that time of night. He may need to be taken down to the lamppost.

I understand that people work hours other than 9 to 5. I do. But whatever hours you work, you can find less risky times to do what you want to do, and avoid unnecessary risks.

- Jim
Why are we even psychoanalyzing the good guy!?!? Who cares why he was doing something legal at any given time of the nite...I'm glad it was a sheepdog that was out instead of an unarmed young woman..the news report probably would have been much different don't ya think?

The wolves of the night SHOULD fear the sheepdogs...not the other way around...I know its not Utopia but why should a honest citizen NOT be able to legally walk around minding his business not be able to do what he wants to do when he wants to do it.

This whole situation shouldn't be why he was there..it should be why were those scum suckers there

Stop looking for the wrong the honest guy did...and start praising what he did RIGHT
A sheepdog says "I will lead the way. I will set the highest standards. ...Your mission is to man the ramparts in this dark and desperate hour with honor and courage." - Lt. Col. Grossman
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ - Edmond Burke
User avatar
seamusTX
Senior Member
Posts: 13551
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: Galveston

Re: One less thug

Post by seamusTX »

It is legal in Texas for a woman to swim topless at the beach at night. Does that make it a good idea?

If you don't see my point, I can't make it any clearer.

- Jim
User avatar
seamusTX
Senior Member
Posts: 13551
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: Galveston

Re: One less thug

Post by seamusTX »

Horse water drink.

- Jim
User avatar
Excaliber
Moderator
Posts: 6199
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 9:59 pm
Location: DFW Metro

Re: One less thug

Post by Excaliber »

This is not a case where someone ran into trouble while drinking with gangbangers at 3 AM.

I agree with the members who have pointed out that the victim here was simply going about his legitimate business as a free citizen, and according to the reports I've seen so far, did nothing to invite attack. A man should be free to walk his dog in the neighborhood park at any time the park is open. If predators choose to use that venue as a hunting ground, they do so at their own risk.

The burden for creating the situation that led to the death of an armed robber falls entirely on the bandit and his accomplices.

There are some potential consequences down the road for the good guy, but they pale in comparison to what may well have happened if he didn't defend himself as he did. If the initial reports are accurate, I doubt he'll encounter any serious issues as a result as long as he is able to square his actions with his own conscience. Fears of retaliation from the bad guys' buddies are usually overblown except when active criminal gangs are involved.

I see this incident as a clear illustration of why concealed carry 24/7 is a reasonable and necessary practice for those who understand the risks in the environment. It should also serve as a warning to the wolves who sometimes forget that there are sheepdogs among the sheep.
Excaliber

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
User avatar
seamusTX
Senior Member
Posts: 13551
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: Galveston

Re: One less thug

Post by seamusTX »

A man should be free to walk his dog in the neighborhood park at any time the park is open.
I already stipulated that, but you can't take should to the bank.

I know or have known people who have killed in self-defense or in combat. None of them say they were happy they did it and had no regrets or sleepless nights.

Excaliber, you should know as well as anyone that having a weapon does not guarantee survival. Usually at least one person in every gunfight gets shot, and often both do.

This guy was very lucky to be part of a perfect self-defense incident. He got off the only shot, that shot stopped the threat, and the other thugs were unable or unwilling to attack him.

Responding to the comments of some other posters, I do not "cower" or hide in my home. That is a straw-man argument and could be considered insulting.

I go where I need and want to go and accept the risks. But I know where crimes frequently occur in my neighborhood, and I don't go to those places unnecessarily. One of them is in fact a park half a mile from my house. It is the scene of many assaults, robberies, shootings.

I don't know if that was the case with park in this story, but parks and dark alleys are the classic mugging sites.

- Jim
CHL/LEO
Senior Member
Posts: 437
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:26 am
Location: Dallas

Re: One less thug

Post by CHL/LEO »

It is legal in Texas for a woman to swim topless at the beach at night. Does that make it a good idea?
Case law has ruled that it's entirely legal for women to walk around topless in public in Texas. Thank goodness women employ common sense (and modesty) because the results would not be good. Now if "open carry" was to pass, and they chose to walk around topless with a handgun in plain view, they might be OK.

Back to the situation concerning this thread; it really doesn't matter whether it's Terrell or Dallas - a person should be able to go where they want, when they want. However, one needs to be aware of the consequences of their actions. To do so without being properly prepared, along with being willing to suffer the consequences, is their responsibility. There are apartment complexes and housing projects in Dallas that aren't really safe to be wandering around in at any time of the day but people do so. Most of the time nothing happens but on a regular basis something does - that's just the chance one takes.

I'm a huge proponent of trying to get people to watch the outdoor predator (lions, big cats or hyenas, dingos or wild dogs) documentaries on National Geographic, Discovery Channel, Animal Kingdom, etc. to better understand the behavior of criminals. A hunting lion pride, pack of hyenas, or wild dog pack is very similar to a group of thugs while a tiger, cheetah, or leopard is just like the lone criminal stalking his prey. Large groups of prey move through this environment and the vast majority stay safe while there are always a few that become "victims". These documentaries seem to always do a good job of setting up the ambush by showing what the predators are doing and what the prey is doing and one can usually see the outcome well in advance to it happening. Sometimes the prey gets lucky and dodges left when the predator predicted a move to the right. That is the exception rather than the rule. If a predator does that too many times Darwin takes over and that gene pool is cleaned out.

Now take those same scenarios and apply them to the environments where we travel about and you can see it play out the same just on a different scale. The man that went walking in the park is not much different than an animal feeding at night in Africa. You should assume that there are predators about and your life is in constant danger. The difference in this case is that the prey was able to be armed and could take measures to protect himself. That being said he was still lucky as even though he shot one thug the others could have still hurt or killed him if they would have been so inclined or prepared to do so. Even a large and dangerous Water Buffalo can take out one or two lions attacking him but if the pride forces the encounter the odds are good that he will eventually go down unless some others from his herd come to help him.

Unfortunately, for every one person that knows and prepares for the dangerous world that we live in there are 10 or more that don't do so. They are either clueless as to what lies around them or they're in denial that it could ever happen to them. They believe that the rules of society, laws, police, guardian angel or something will look out for them, and thank goodness in most cases it does, but I believe it's always better to "hope for the best while you prepare for the worst".

Be grateful that we have the ability in Texas (and most states) to carry a handgun so that we can protect ourselves and our families. Take care, stay safe and watch out for the wildlife.
"Conflict is inevitable; Combat is an option."

Life Member - NRA/TSRA/GOA
User avatar
Excaliber
Moderator
Posts: 6199
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 9:59 pm
Location: DFW Metro

Re: One less thug

Post by Excaliber »

seamusTX wrote:
A man should be free to walk his dog in the neighborhood park at any time the park is open.
I already stipulated that, but you can't take should to the bank.

I know or have known people who have killed in self-defense or in combat. None of them say they were happy they did it and had no regrets or sleepless nights.

Excaliber, you should know as well as anyone that having a weapon does not guarantee survival. Usually at least one person in every gunfight gets shot, and often both do.

This guy was very lucky to be part of a perfect self-defense incident. He got off the only shot, that shot stopped the threat, and the other thugs were unable or unwilling to attack him.

Responding to the comments of some other posters, I do not "cower" or hide in my home. That is a straw-man argument and could be considered insulting.

I go where I need and want to go and accept the risks. But I know where crimes frequently occur in my neighborhood, and I don't go to those places unnecessarily. One of them is in fact a park half a mile from my house. It is the scene of many assaults, robberies, shootings.

I don't know if that was the case with park in this story, but parks and dark alleys are the classic mugging sites.

- Jim
You're correct that I'm well aware having a weapon doesn't guarantee survival - but I didn't state or imply that it does.

Preparation is a large part of luck. From the reports I've seen, this was a very volatile incident and, from the results, I suspect the intended victim involved was not a casual "carry only when I think I'll need it" and "go to the range only for qualifications" CHL holder.

While muggings certainly occur in parks and dark alleys, they also occur in mall and supermarket parking lots and outside convenience stores. I don't consider any of these areas high risk in the sense that you could legitimately be considered to be looking for trouble if you go there, even though someone may attempt to victimize you if you do.

When citizens in effect turn over common areas to the exclusive use of criminals by avoiding them because crimes may occur there, they undermine their own safety and encourage expansion of those danger areas. I believe there is value to having armed citizens go about their legitimate business with occasional results like the ones described in the OP, and letting the bad guys do the worrying about next time.

You can bet that the 3 bad guys who lived through this incident did some serious reflection about their choices for evening recreation - after they changed their underwear.
Excaliber

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
User avatar
seamusTX
Senior Member
Posts: 13551
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: Galveston

Re: One less thug

Post by seamusTX »

You're correct that I'm well aware having a weapon doesn't guarantee survival - nor did I state or imply that it does.
The logic behind the thinking that I'll go wherever I want because I am armed and trained implies that a pistol is the solution to every potential problem.

Most robbers do not shoot first mainly because they do not want attention. That gives the defender a chance after robber presents the weapon.

However, some criminals do shoot first, and from cover or behind. That is the kind of risk that I want to avoid.

An innocent man died here in Galveston when he opened the door to a convenience store that he went to every morning for coffee. The store had just been robbed, and the robbers could see him coming, while he could not see inside through the tinted windows.
... mall and supermarket parking lots and outside convenience stores.
I have frequently stated that these are elevated-risk areas. That does not stop me from going to them, but I don't spend more time there than I need to.
I believe there is value to having armed citizens go about their legitimate business with occasional results like the ones described in the OP, and letting the bad guys do the worrying about next time.
I agree, however the effects on criminal behavior may be (1) to avoid confident-looking middle-aged men and victimize the weak, and (2) strike first. It is easy to stick a knife into someone who has poor situational awareness.

The penalties for aggravated robbery and aggravated assault are the same, (though aggravated assault is probably punished more harshly in practice).

- Jim
User avatar
Captain Matt
Senior Member
Posts: 507
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:43 pm
Location: blue water

Re: One less thug

Post by Captain Matt »

seamusTX wrote:It is legal in Texas for a woman to swim topless at the beach at night. Does that make it a good idea?
It depends what she looks like.

Going back to the story. The guy was walking his dog at 10pm. He wasn't taking money out of the ATM at 2am. Could he have avoided the attack by walking his dog during daylight hours? Maybe. Maybe not. Criminals attack people in the daytime too.

In the end, the good guy is safe and there's one fewer bad guy out there. Win. Win.
"hic sunt dracones"
User avatar
MrsFosforos
Senior Member
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:25 pm
Location: Dallas Area

Re: One less thug

Post by MrsFosforos »

seamusTX wrote: I don't know if that was the case with park in this story, but parks and dark alleys are the classic mugging sites.
- Jim
Yes, there are parts of this town where people don't tend to go after dark if we don't have to, but this park in particular has never been considered one of those places. It has been the picture of a park with a home town atmoshphere, duck pond with a small fountain, a covered pavilion, soccer fields, baseball complex and it is encircled by a lighted sidewalk walking path.

In the span of just a couple of days we've had this and 4 other incidents of armed robberies that have occured around different parts of town (none of which are considered high crime areas). Now we've all been forced to realize, like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, "Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore".
austin
Senior Member
Posts: 342
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:02 pm

Re: One less thug

Post by austin »

This guy was very lucky to be part of a perfect self-defense incident. He got off the only shot, that shot stopped the threat, and the other thugs were unable or unwilling to attack him.

Responding to the comments of some other posters, I do not "cower" or hide in my home. That is a straw-man argument and could be considered insulting.
He fired several shots, some hit the mugger and others hit the car. Sounds like the big tough bad guys were motivated to not attack!

You were not there - you have no idea who the citizen was or the circumstances of the incident so you cannot say that he got lucky or that the other thugs did not want to attack him.

IMHO, the citizen knew he was being singled out and was probably bird-dogging the mugger and his buddies as they approached him.

If I were out walking the dog late and night and four guys approached me, I'd have my hand on my pistol and be ready to get off the x.

As for luck, a few hours of training and a little practice once a week, and you and most of the people on this forum could easily defeat most crooks. There are some simple techniques as well as use of AIWB that will stack the odds in your favor.

As far as stats go, most people who use their pistols in self-defense are unscathed.

The one most annoying thing about the Texas CHL Forum are those who deride and second-guess every self-defense shooting out there.

The citizen in this case should have a beer hoisted in his name. He went home to his family and lived another day. This person has some mojo and we need to learn from it, not nitpick the color of his underwear.
glockrell
Junior Member
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:06 pm

Re: One less thug

Post by glockrell »

He needs a bigger Dog!!!!!!
May 12th- Packet received via USPS confirmation
Sept 13th- Hurrican Ike
Sept 26 - waiting on Harris County background
Sept 30 - application completed- license issuance
Oct 6th - PLASTIC IN HAND!! (147 days of torture)
User avatar
seamusTX
Senior Member
Posts: 13551
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: Galveston

Re: One less thug

Post by seamusTX »

austin wrote:The one most annoying thing about the Texas CHL Forum are those who deride and second-guess every self-defense shooting out there.
I have posted plenty of self-defense accounts that I thought were commendable.

It is not in my marching orders to avoid annoying people. I don't go out of my way to be obnoxious; but if I make a statement that annoys someone, that's just the way it is.

- Jim
User avatar
Oldgringo
Senior Member
Posts: 11203
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:15 pm
Location: Pineywoods of east Texas

Re: One less thug

Post by Oldgringo »

Very interesting give and take! Do we have a winner? :tiphat:

Here in the Pineywoods, we're not up at 10:00 PM but if we were, we could take our dog (RIP beloved Mindy) out for a walk without worrying about carrying our "heaters". If I had to live where y'all live, I'd give serious thought to having the dog toilet trained.
User avatar
seamusTX
Senior Member
Posts: 13551
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: Galveston

Re: One less thug

Post by seamusTX »

Oldgringo wrote:Very interesting give and take! Do we have a winner?
Everyone has stated a position based on their philosophy and life experiences. I doubt that any minds have been changed.

- Jim
Post Reply

Return to “General Texas CHL Discussion”