Want advice from lessons learned.

[Liberty]

In my post I spoke only about the action type, and not specific gun models.

The 1911 is one example of SA, and as you point out, the pistol's operation is somewhat more complex than something like a Glock, but no more so than an SA/DA with a safety / decocker. However, the "point'n shoot" Springfield XD is also a single action gun, and just as easy to learn as a Glock or Kahr.

While I was thinking 1911 even the XD seems more complex in design than a Glock or most DAs. Actual operation seems about the same.

The issue with the SA/DA guns is not the pull itself in either DA or SA mode - it's the transition between them under stress. In many police shootings with them it was found that the first DA round was a miss, and the hits were all fired SA. Some officers even advocated "throwing away" the first shot to get to the SA action. Needless to say, this was not endorsed by their trainers.

The problem can most certainly be overcome with adequate training and commitment, but many folks don't follow through on this (and this is true of police officers as well). Thus, SeamusTx's advice to pick one action type and stick with it makes sense, because if you "calibrate" yourself to only pull the trigger one way all the time, your likelihood of being able to do that successfully under stress (when you can expect your normal performance to degrade by 40% or more) is much greater.

This is, of course, not an absolute. If you like the DA/SA system and are willing to train to the level of unconscious competence with it, it will serve you just as well as any other.

I guess you have a point, I just never put much stock trigger pull differences. For some strange reason, I shoot my Ruger best although the DA pull has been described as horrible and the SA as terrible, Trigger seems pretty good to me though and I shoot the same on Double as Single. I'm not what I consider a real good shooter, but can keep a magful in a 6 inch circle at 7 yards and most in at 15 yards. Lots of room for improvement, hopefully good enough to keep me out of trouble. My thinking is that we don't need to be tack drivers to be successful in a defensive situation. just well trained and familiar with the tools at our disposal. Trigger difference between SA and DA seem to be better suited for those who like driving tacks or making single holes. I suppose though one can never be too acurate.

[Liberty]

Merry Christmas, everybody.

Sometimes my messages are a little too terse.

The discussion above amplifies what I meant by "pick an action." The movements that you have to carry out between the decision to draw and the first shot being fired are vitally important.

With SA, you have to release a safety; then you have a crisp, light trigger action. With DA you have no manual safety and a longer, heavier action -- though quite a spectrum is available there.

You don't want to have to think about which handgun you're carrying, or fumble. You want a smoothly habitual motion.

Jim,
you can say more in just a few words than just about anyone I know.
I thought that is the point you were making because of other discussions we've had. Although recreationally shooting another gun is not a bad thing. Training and carrying should be done with similar guns. Otherwise confusion can take place when pressure is on.

[seamusTX]

Thanks.

I agree entirely. I would not be confident with different handguns, having safeties or magazine releases in different places.

- Jim

[Liberty]

Thanks.

I agree entirely. I would not be confident with different handguns, having safeties or magazine releases in different places.

- Jim

Like the old saying puts it.
"Beware of the man with one gun, he probably knows how to use it."

Merry Christmas !!!

[Excaliber]

I guess you have a point, I just never put much stock trigger pull differences. For some strange reason, I shoot my Ruger best although the DA pull has been described as horrible and the SA as terrible, Trigger seems pretty good to me though and I shoot the same on Double as Single. I'm not what I consider a real good shooter, but can keep a magful in a 6 inch circle at 7 yards and most in at 15 yards. Lots of room for improvement, hopefully good enough to keep me out of trouble. My thinking is that we don't need to be tack drivers to be successful in a defensive situation. just well trained and familiar with the tools at our disposal. Trigger difference between SA and DA seem to be better suited for those who like driving tacks or making single holes. I suppose though one can never be too acurate.

Liberty, from your post above your choice of weapon seems to work fine for you and I wouldn't suggest any change.

One thing to keep in mind is that, in a life threatening situation when the adrenaline dumps and your heart rate doubles, one of the first abilities you lose is fine motor coordination - as in trigger control. Gross motor abilities, on the other hand, improve. What tends to happen is that, with a heavy first shot pull, that application of gross motor function is overdone and the shot is often jerked off target. Then the same gross, heavy pull is applied to some or all of the subsequent single action shots with significant effects on accuracy. Once again, this can be overcome by extensive training, but it can also reappear unexpectedly under stress.

This phenomenon affects single action and straight DA pulls to some extent as well, but the transition from one pull to another after the first shot appears to be more of an issue in actual incidents.

One of these days I'm going to put together a post on the psychophysiological effects of life threatening stress on performance. It will help to make topics like this much easier to understand.

[Excaliber]

Thanks.

I agree entirely. I would not be confident with different handguns, having safeties or magazine releases in different places.

- Jim

In general, I agree.

However, many of us do have different guns with some operational differences. I pick mine so I spend the most time with the most complex (1911's), and the operational requirements of those will not cause issues if applied to the other guns (e.g., Springfield XD, Kahr, Glock, etc.)

In practice, the primary difference is whether or not the safety is wiped off as the gun is presented. I practice doing this with the 1911's, and doing so while drawing a Glock, Kahr, or XD doesn't hurt a thing - the safety isn't there and the thumb movement isn't necessary, but it doesn't have any negative effect and the gun will still fire when the trigger is pulled.

I would not complicate my muscle memory by carrying a gun with a significantly different system, e.g. a DA/SA Smith where the fire position of the safety / decocker is in the up position instead of down as on the 1911. For me, that would just be asking for trouble under stress.

[Excaliber]

The primary safety is where you point the muzzle and where you keep your trigger finger when you're not trying to shoot. Gadgets on the gun are secondary.

I also agree that a "point and shoot" solution is better for most folks who are not willing to immerse themselves in the shooting skills.

I would strongly advise against carrying any gun without a holster for reasons detailed in other posts on this forum, even if it is equipped with a grip safety like the XD (which I also own and like a lot).

A manual safety is required when working with a team because the risk of getting an ND due to physical contact during chaotic moments. The point man can have his safety off, but the others must be engaged. Fingers can be pressed into triggers during bumps as well as gear and other objects. I've seen it and done it.

Having really good point shooting skills and a draw stroke from any aspect is far more valuable by any magnitude over being able to hit a target at 25 yards. If you work on any skill, the fast draw to first shot/first hit in the 1-15 feet range is the most important. In maybe 1/100% of the cases is being able to shoot past 25 yards important. Airsoft is the way to get this skill down at home.

Holsters are not safety devices. They exist to hold the pistol. How you hold the pistol depends on your circumstances.

The fact that the trigger is protected from contact does not mean that the holster itself when used does not introduce some risk. Some retention holsters are notoriously unsafe.

Furthermore, Glocks and XDs have ND'd when returned to the holster due to clothing and fingers getting inside the trigger guard.

One reason why AIWB is safer than OWB is that its harder for clothing to get in the way of a reholster or re-panting versus OWB because the area is easily seen and clothing is more easily cleared.

There is a slight speed advantage with a holster when AIWB because the grip can be made on the pistol quicker, BUT the finger has much greater chance of entering the trigger guard on the upwards draw because the fingers are still in motion and not flattened when the grip is obtained.

With AIWB no holster, you MUST flatten the fingers along your pants leg to get a proper grip before the draw. This makes it safer than using a holster on the draw.

AIWB no holster is the most concealed of all fast-draw options. Its also the most comfortable and the easiest to do.

There are numerous cases where AIWB no holster has escaped close searches of good guys by criminals which allowed the GG to then win the fight.

Its not for everyone, but if you are in good shape and want the fastest draw with the greatest concealment, it cannot be beat.

An instructional reminder of the inadvisability of AIWB (Appendix Inside the WaistBand) holsterless carry of a firearm appears as a "Briefing Room" editor's article on page 6 of the August 2009 issue of SWAT Magazine. According to the article, in mid April of this year, longtime SWAT Magazine contributing staff member Steve Malloy died in his own home from an accidental bullet wound to the chest. The article states:

"As best as can be determined, Steve had a pistol in his waistband and when he bent over to tie his shoes, the pistol fell onto the floor and discharged - the bullet struck Steve in the chest. He was found in the garage, apparently trying to leave the home to summon aid."

Mr. Malloy was one of the original authors of SWAT magazine at its founding, and was no stranger to firearms. Unfortunately he apparently did not fully appreciate the risks of AIWB carry, and paid for that oversight with his life.