Does 30.06 trump 46.15 [b] (4), or vice-versa?

[Renegade]

If you are at a gun show or other place defined by 46.15 (4), that also posts 30.06, what rule of law governs?

Anyone care to comment on this? Does the NONAPPLICABILITY of 46.15 (4) trump 30.06? Or does 30.06 trump 46.15 (4)?

My brother in law who is a peace officer with a CHL and gets his NONAPPLICABILITY via 46.15 [a](1) and thinks he is safe from 30.06.

[txinvestigator]

If you are at a gun show or other place defined by 46.15 (4), that also posts 30.06, what rule of law governs?

Anyone care to comment on this? Does the NONAPPLICABILITY of 46.15 (4) trump 30.06? Or does 30.06 trump 46.15 (4)?

My brother in law who is a peace officer with a CHL and gets his NONAPPLICABILITY via 46.15 [a](1) and thinks he is safe from 30.06.

I don't believe 46.15 (b)(4) applys to a gun show. First, it is not a sporting activity, second, you don't USE a handgun at a gunshow. At any rate, 30.06 is allowed by any private property owner, and you would be trespassing if you carried there.

46.15 (b) exempts you from 46.02. It does not exempt you from 30.06.

Your BIL, is exempt inder (a)(1),

30.06 only applies to CHL holders, and not LEO's. He can carry anyplace that posts a 30.06.

[Renegade]

I don't believe 46.15 (b)(4) applys to a gun show. First, it is not a sporting activity, second, you don't USE a handgun at a gunshow. At any rate, 30.06 is allowed by any private property owner, and you would be trespassing if you carried there.

It has to apply, otherwise all those folks carrying handguns to/from the show would be in violation of UCW. Remember, not all shows are entirely on private property. Before CHL, I carried plenty of handguns from public parking in Dallas Convention Center along Dallas public streets and sidewalks. I was told it was legal as a result 46.15 (b)(4).

46.15 (b) exempts you from 46.02. It does not exempt you from 30.06.

Your BIL, is exempt inder (a)(1),

30.06 only applies to CHL holders, and not LEO's. He can carry anyplace that posts a 30.06.

My BIL has a CHL too, as do lots of LEOs. There is no exemption from 30.06 for LEOs. Just common sense that LEO status trumps 30.06.

This of course is a mental exercise, not a case study.

[Renegade]

Here is another way to look at it:

A CHL goes to a Gun Show that is posted 30.06. He does not bring a handgun. While there, he sees a handgun he likes and buys it. What LAW allows him to carry on or about his person, said handgun, from table of purchase through other portions of gun show, to exit door, without violating 30.06? I say "effective consent" portion of 30.06 law which by the fact it is a GUN SHOW, implies it is OK to buy (but not load), a handgun and leave with it.

Likewise, how does a non-CHL do the same; buy a handgun and then carry said handgun, on or about his person, to his POV, where he places it in trunk and is no longer carrying on or about his person, without being in violation of UCW? What LAW allows that? I always was told and believed 46.15(4).

[txinvestigator]

I don't believe 46.15 (b)(4) applys to a gun show. First, it is not a sporting activity, second, you don't USE a handgun at a gunshow. At any rate, 30.06 is allowed by any private property owner, and you would be trespassing if you carried there.

It has to apply, otherwise all those folks carrying handguns to/from the show would be in violation of UCW. Remember, not all shows are entirely on private property. Before CHL, I carried plenty of handguns from public parking in Dallas Convention Center along Dallas public streets and sidewalks. I was told it was legal as a result 46.15 (b)(4).

46.15 (b) exempts you from 46.02. It does not exempt you from 30.06.

Your BIL, is exempt inder (a)(1),

30.06 only applies to CHL holders, and not LEO's. He can carry anyplace that posts a 30.06.

My BIL has a CHL too, as do lots of LEOs. There is no exemption from 30.06 for LEOs. Just common sense that LEO status trumps 30.06.

This of course is a mental exercise, not a case study.

I disagree. Here is why.

First, lets look at your gun show exemption for non-LEO's.



§46.15. Nonapplicability.



(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:



(4) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting
activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or
is directly en route between the premises and the actor's residence,
if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;

To apply this exemption, you would have to assume that "used in the activity" would have to include offering for sale or purchasing.

So that begs a question, if you buy a handgun at Academy, is that a lawful sporting activity? If not, how do you legally carry the handgun home sans a CHL? If you say it is not a sporting activity, then how is a gun show different?

However, to get to the second part of your first question, lets assume that we all agree that a gun show is a lawful sporting activity.

Now 46.15 (4) will ALLOW you to carry there. But if they post a 30.06 sign you are prohibited from carrying concealed;

All we really need to do is read the beginnig of 30.06.


§30.06. Trespass by holder of license to carry concealed handgun.

(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:

(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another....

They are different laws, and neither trumps or superrceeds the other. Any private business can post 30.06. At the gun range, we choose not to post, but we could, even tough we are a lawful sporting event.

46.15 (4) applies to ALL persons, not just CHL holders as does 30.06.

30.06 was needed for CHL holders only because non-chl holders cannot carry anywhere except those places listed under 46.15 .

46.15 (4) simply says UCW does not apply in that situation. 30.06 is a trespassing statute. It stands regardless of 46.15.

Now on to your BIL. His LEO status exempts him from 30.06. Again read 30.06, it applies to people who are carrying a handgun under authority of 411 of the govt code. Your BIL is carrying under authority of 46.15 [a ](1)


§46.15. Nonapplicability.

(a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:

(1) peace officers, including commissioned peace officers of
a recognized state, or special investigators under Article 2.122,
Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace
officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state,
including in an establishment in this state serving the public,
regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator is
engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's
duties while carrying the weapon;

There are 2 reasons for LEO's to have a CHL. 1. NO NICS for gun purchases. 2. If a LEO is suspended from duty, he cannot carry under his Peace Officer License. He can then carry under his CHL. There are many reasons a LEO could lose his Peace Officer Status.

If his Peace Officer license was taken, then 30.06 would apply.

[txinvestigator]

Here is another way to look at it:

A CHL goes to a Gun Show that is posted 30.06. He does not bring a handgun. While there, he sees a handgun he likes and buys it. What LAW allows him to carry on or about his person, said handgun, from table of purchase through other portions of gun show, to exit door, without violating 30.06? I say "effective consent" portion of 30.06 law which by the fact it is a GUN SHOW, implies it is OK to buy (but not load), a handgun and leave with it.

I had not considered the effective consent phrase in 30.06. However, 30.06 applies to concealed handguns, since it references 411 of the govt code.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I don't believe 46.15 (b)(4) applys to a gun show. First, it is not a sporting activity, second, you don't USE a handgun at a gunshow. At any rate, 30.06 is allowed by any private property owner, and you would be trespassing if you carried there.

It has to apply, otherwise all those folks carrying handguns to/from the show would be in violation of UCW. Remember, not all shows are entirely on private property. Before CHL, I carried plenty of handguns from public parking in Dallas Convention Center along Dallas public streets and sidewalks. I was told it was legal as a result 46.15 (b)(4).

That's the Catch 22 in the Penal Code. It is a violation of TPC §46.02 for a non-CHL to carry a handgun at a gun show, as well as to and from the gun show. It's done all the time and LEO's don't make arrests, but it is technically a violation of 46.02.

A CHL has been given effective consent to enter the gun show with a handgun, in spite of the 30.06 sign. Sometimes the gun show promoter requires the gun to be checked to show it’s not loaded, sometimes they do not.

46.15 (b) exempts you from 46.02. It does not exempt you from 30.06.

Your BIL, is exempt inder (a)(1),

30.06 only applies to CHL holders, and not LEO's. He can carry anyplace that posts a 30.06.

My BIL has a CHL too, as do lots of LEOs. There is no exemption from 30.06 for LEOs. Just common sense that LEO status trumps 30.06.

A LEO doesn't need a CHL to be able to carry a handgun. Their exemption from TPC §46.02 (and TPC §46.03) is found in TPC §46.15(a)(1).
While LEO's may not technically be exempt from TPC §30.06, they effectively are since they cannot be prosecuted for trespass for carrying a handgun on posted property.

Regards,
Chas.

[Renegade]

Again read 30.06, it applies to people who are carrying a handgun under authority of 411 of the govt code.

Ah, good answer. He is not carrying under CHL authority, so 30.06 does not apply. Thanks.

[Renegade]

That's the Catch 22 in the Penal Code. It is a violation of TPC §46.02 for a non-CHL to carry a handgun at a gun show, as well as to and from the gun show. It's done all the time and LEO's don't make arrests, but it is technically a violation of 46.02.

Not just gun shows, but friends house, retail stores, ranges, gunsmiths, etc. Any place that is not "hunting, fishing, sporting activity". Heck, FFLs selling/in possession of handguns at gun shows are/were (before CHL law or after CHL law but with no CHL) also in violation of 46.02 too. Of course, you could be "traveling" instead, but let's not go there. :-)

OK, I will just add this to the long list of crimes I have committed and not been caught on. :-)

[Renegade]

I had not considered the effective consent phrase in 30.06.

I was told the reason I can carry my handgun at a gun show that is posted 30.06 is because when I give it the counter guy, he ties it up and hands it back to me, that is "effective consent" to then carry the gun (in that condition) into the show.

[txinvestigator]

I had not considered the effective consent phrase in 30.06.

I was told the reason I can carry my handgun at a gun show that is posted 30.06 is because when I give it the counter guy, he ties it up and hands it back to me, that is "effective consent" to then carry the gun (in that condition) into the show.

Makes sense, but then gun is not then concealed, unless you do conceal it then.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Makes sense, but then gun is not then concealed, unless you do conceal it then.

Yep! There are clearly a number of loose ends. If we CHL's walk around a gun show carrying openly then we violate §46.035(a) by intentionally failing to conceal a handgun.

Chas.

[kw5kw]

Face it;

1) There are rules (laws).

2) There are exceptions to every rule.

3) There are rules to every exception.

4) Go to 1.

That's why we have jury's :(

[waffenmacht]

This thread is very interesting. I almost always carry a handgun into the gunshows I attend (Market Hall and Big Town for example). I know that the guy who checks weapons and adds the silly little zip tie at Big Town is a LEO in uniform...So my question is this. If the "weapons check guy" put the zip tie on my weapon, and I enter then I'll buy that I have been given consent to carry there. Does this consent trump the 30.06 sign, which tells me I can't carry there? This is one of those little glitches in the law, that I'm sure just requires some common sense to figure out, at least for 99% of the good folks out there. The problem is when you get the 1 bad cop, civilian, whatever that maks a big deal over the written letter of the law and decides to make one of us an example. Thoughts?
-Bruce

[txinvestigator]

This thread is very interesting. I almost always carry a handgun into the gunshows I attend (Market Hall and Big Town for example). I know that the guy who checks weapons and adds the silly little zip tie at Big Town is a LEO in uniform...So my question is this. If the "weapons check guy" put the zip tie on my weapon, and I enter then I'll buy that I have been given consent to carry there. Does this consent trump the 30.06 sign, which tells me I can't carry there? This is one of those little glitches in the law, that I'm sure just requires some common sense to figure out, at least for 99% of the good folks out there. The problem is when you get the 1 bad cop, civilian, whatever that maks a big deal over the written letter of the law and decides to make one of us an example. Thoughts?
-Bruce

I don't think this in really a glitch. You have been given consent to carry a sip-tied handgun that they know is clear. If you carry another concealed handun, IMO, you are in violation of 30.06.