I appreciate all of the words of wisdom here.
While I obviously have differences in theology between the Moonies, Unitarians, et. al., generally speaking I don't let that get in the way of what I do. "Be in the world, but not of the world," right?
Besides, unless I find a Kahr in the $350 or lower price point, a Kahr ain't happenin' anyway.
I held a PF9 yesterday. It feels good - not great, but good. It is noticably thinner than the P11. The PF9, I believe, with a good pocket holster is pocketable; the P11 is in the same class as a Millennium Pro - too thick.
I know the LCP/P3AT is teeny-tiny and uber-concealable. Trade offs, I know...concealabilty vs. grip/shooting comfort and all that jazz.
I guess I need to try a little harder to find someone in my neck of the woods who has one/the other/both and would let me run a few mags through it/them for myself.
Gotta run for now...
Q
kel-tec PF9: Opinions (1st hand, please)
Moderator: carlson1
Re: kel-tec PF9: Opinions (1st hand, please)
Texas CHL received 07/24/09 and being used daily.
Re: kel-tec PF9: Opinions (1st hand, please)
Good deal price on a CW9 would be about $370+tax.quoheleth wrote: Besides, unless I find a Kahr in the $350 or lower price point, a Kahr ain't happenin' anyway.
non-conformist CHL holder
Re: kel-tec PF9: Opinions (1st hand, please)
Both Kahr and the Unification Church have repeatedly and directly refuted both of these articles.wgoforth wrote:http://www.portfolio.com/careers/featur ... ion-Church
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/na ... moon10.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That's why I said it was a "stretch". Maybe you choose to believe this, but I have not been able to find any legitimate evidence that has not been directly refuted that suggests that Kahr Arms is owned by the Unification Church or any subsidiary thereof. It is certain that the machining company assisted in making the original prototypes but Kahr Arms is a completely separate entity at the present time, as far as I can tell.
Now I didn't go out and do a big research project on this. I looked on the internet, and I am pretty good at finding information on the net if there is information available. So it could be that Kahr is indeed somehow owned by the Unification Church and there just happens to be no credible evidence of such on the internet, or it could be that all of the conjecture on the internet forums is based primarily on the fact that Justin Moon's father runs the Unification Church. I can't say one way or another with any real certainty, but I would tend to give Kahr and the Unification Church the benefit of the doubt when they are willing to go openly on record to deny the claims made by the Washington Post and Conde Nast.
I don't have any love for the Unification Church, FWIW. Just want to make sure that we don't make unfounded inflammatory claims about a firearms maker without considering all of the information that we have available.
non-conformist CHL holder
Re: kel-tec PF9: Opinions (1st hand, please)
I am a Kahr owner, but everything I have read indicates there are pretty strong ties and financing going on from the profits as one of the subsidiaries owned by the Unification Church is listed as Salieo Inc (aka Kahr Arms.)
Check out this court document and you will see the connections and relationships http://www.nssf.org/share/legal/litigat ... plaint.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I knew this when I bought my Kahr, but felt the firearm quality was worth the purchase even though it might help finance the church that I wouldn't donate to directly.
Actually, I would have been surprised if Rev. Moon or his corporation wouldn't have invested in a business that his son ran. It is probably where the seed money came from in the first place. Justin is smart, and has 5 patents on file for designs. He has made a very good product, and in turn the company has grown and become very profitable. I'll bet if you search deep enough in almost any company you will probably see stockholders or investors associated with it that you don't like their practices.
It all boils down to how deep your convictions run and what you are willing to sacrifice for something else. To me it wasn't that big of an issue, so I bought what I wanted. Now, had it been supporting drugs, terrorism, illegal activities, etc I would not have even thought about buying the product.
Check out this court document and you will see the connections and relationships http://www.nssf.org/share/legal/litigat ... plaint.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I knew this when I bought my Kahr, but felt the firearm quality was worth the purchase even though it might help finance the church that I wouldn't donate to directly.
Actually, I would have been surprised if Rev. Moon or his corporation wouldn't have invested in a business that his son ran. It is probably where the seed money came from in the first place. Justin is smart, and has 5 patents on file for designs. He has made a very good product, and in turn the company has grown and become very profitable. I'll bet if you search deep enough in almost any company you will probably see stockholders or investors associated with it that you don't like their practices.
It all boils down to how deep your convictions run and what you are willing to sacrifice for something else. To me it wasn't that big of an issue, so I bought what I wanted. Now, had it been supporting drugs, terrorism, illegal activities, etc I would not have even thought about buying the product.
Keith
Texas LTC Instructor, Missouri CCW Instructor, NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun Instructor and RSO, NRA Life Member
Psalm 82:3-4
Texas LTC Instructor, Missouri CCW Instructor, NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun Instructor and RSO, NRA Life Member
Psalm 82:3-4
Re: kel-tec PF9: Opinions (1st hand, please)
Keith, thanks for posting that info. I will point out that it is only current as of 10 years ago and Kahr was a very young company at that time, not having realized nearly the growth that represents the current face of the company.
In reading that document and other info on the internet I can find, it appears that there is some confusion and contradictory information:
1. The lawsuit document states that as of 1999, Justin Moon owned 82% of the stock in Saeilo Inc., the other 18% being held by "Machine Industries, Inc.". But then in the very next item, it says that "On Up Enterprises, Inc.", listed as operating at the same premises as Machine Industries, is "a holding company for many of the Unification Church's businesses, including wholly owned subsidiaries Saeilo Inc...". So, how can Saeilo be at the same time wholly-owned by Machine Industries, Inc., who is claimed to be "a holding company for many of the Unification Church's businesses", and also have 82% of its stock held by an individual person, Justin Moon? This only makes sense if Saeilo, Inc. and One Up Industries, Inc. are actually the same company, but if this were true then Justin Moon would also be majority shareholder in One Up Industries.
2. They continually point out that the companies that own part or all of Kahr Arms or Saeilo (besides the private 82% ownership of Justin Moon) are "holding companies" for the "Unification Church". This clearly is done in order to establish the idea that these companies are tied to the church. But anyone who has worked at a church or other non-profit organization knows full well that you cannot operate a for-profit business such as manufacturing machined goods or guns under a non-profit organization such as a church. A church can create products related to the church that may see a profit (like selling CDs or books, for example), or they may realize gains from investment in property, but they can't just eliminate the tax liability associated with a profitable business by covering it up with their non-profit status. This is exactly why I find it very hard to believe that Kahr Arms is "owned by" the Unification Church, because if it was, it would be felony tax fraud.
3. It seems clear that at least some portion of Saeilo Inc. is owned by some organization that also holds other properties or businesses that are associated with the Unification Church, but whatever these holding companies are, they are not, in fact, the church itself. The "Rev." Sun Moon probably owns or has founded other companies that are not a part of the church, but which make a profit, and not limited only to the parent of Kahr Arms. In fact, at the time when the Washington Post was on crusade against Kahr and the Unification Church in their editorials, one of Sun Moon's holdings was none other than the Post's competitor, the Washington Times.
Now I am currently a part-time employee of a church. I am also an employee of a large multinational company. And I own my own business. Some of the profit from both my job at the company, and the profit from my own business, are donated to my church. In fact some of the money I make from my job at the church are given back to that church. That does not cause my company to be "owned by" the church of which I am a member. In fact my church has members who are mayors, senators, very prominent business owners and CEOs, etc. and there is no question that some of the money that is paid do these people as the fruit of their business finds its way back to my church. This is America, and we can spend our money however we like as long as it is legal, and it is perfectly legal for me to take 100% of the profit from my personal business and give it to a church if I see fit. The same goes for Justin Moon, and even Sun Moon even if he owns companies and gives that money directly to the church which he founded.
Likewise a few years ago I was a partner in a company that had both a for-profit business and we were in the process of beginning a non-profit leg of the business as well. This is, of course, perfectly legal and happens all the time. We fully intended to put money from the profit business into the non-profit. Non-profit organizations have to get money from somewhere.
Anyway, I know I have hijacked this thread bigtime but I agree with Keith, this is not a big deal to me about where the profits from Kahr are going. I know a great amount of the profit is going into the redevelopment of new guns and technology, paying staff, etc. A larger part is probably going to pay Justin Moon, who has earned it. What he does with that money is really none of my business. I don't see any evidence showing a direct link between the profit at Kahr Arms and the Unification Church. Such a direct link would likely be illegal and a much bigger issue than the 1999 wrongful death suit.
To bring this back on topic, By the way, I did seriously consider a PF9 and almost bought one. I may also eventually find myself owning a P11, PF9, P3AT or P32. I am impressed with all of the Kel-Tec pistols and wouldn't hesitate to buy one. I sold a piece of music equipment to finance my Kahr purchase, and if I had been unable to sell it then I would likely have wound up with a used PF9. I have nothing against Kel Tec but if you hold both of these guns in your hand it is hard to ignore the obvious difference in quality feel between a CW9 and a PF9. Even if the only difference was the trigger, it would be enough. I think it is worth the $40-50 price difference, especially considering the comparatively high failure rate of Kel-Tec pistols compared with Kahr. The CW9s are known to have issues with the magazine dropping when you fire the last round, which causes the slide to not lock open (mine did). CW9s are also known to have occasional light-strike issues (mine did), resulting from excessive buildup of metal filings in the striker channel during breakin. They are also known to require a protracted breakin period wherein they will have various niggles during the first 200-500 rounds. But the failures of Kel-Tec pistols are much more common and serious. I subscribed to the KTOG forums for a few months before making my choice and read all about the various PF9 issues, and you would be surprised at how many serious revisions the PF9s have gone through and they are still exhibiting issues in new pistols. Both companies are also very well regarded for customer service but of late, the rush on Kahr pistols due to the increase in CCW sales has made their CS lag, and their PM9s have had a barrel-peening issue that they seem to not be able to solve readily, but they just replace the barrels over and over for people with the issue. Kahr sent me a new magazine release to solve my mag drop problem and a detail-strip and cleaning of the upper fixed the light strikes for me.
If you are really considering a PF9 then I suggest going over to the KTOG and read that huge gigantic long thread about the history of the PF9 http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB. ... 1173985819" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (I don't know if you have to be a member to read it or not). It is very informative. The exhaustive list of issues with a CW9 is light strikes and magazine drops, and the fix for light strikes ranges from cleaning to a whole new upper depending on the cause, and the fix for magazine drops ranges from replacing the magazine release all the way to replacing the entire lower and magazine. In either case those usually are one-time, permanent fixes that result in a 100% reliable pistol. I bet fewer than 1 in 1000 CW9s have any issues at all, but I bet 10% of the PF9s have issues right out of the box.
In reading that document and other info on the internet I can find, it appears that there is some confusion and contradictory information:
1. The lawsuit document states that as of 1999, Justin Moon owned 82% of the stock in Saeilo Inc., the other 18% being held by "Machine Industries, Inc.". But then in the very next item, it says that "On Up Enterprises, Inc.", listed as operating at the same premises as Machine Industries, is "a holding company for many of the Unification Church's businesses, including wholly owned subsidiaries Saeilo Inc...". So, how can Saeilo be at the same time wholly-owned by Machine Industries, Inc., who is claimed to be "a holding company for many of the Unification Church's businesses", and also have 82% of its stock held by an individual person, Justin Moon? This only makes sense if Saeilo, Inc. and One Up Industries, Inc. are actually the same company, but if this were true then Justin Moon would also be majority shareholder in One Up Industries.
2. They continually point out that the companies that own part or all of Kahr Arms or Saeilo (besides the private 82% ownership of Justin Moon) are "holding companies" for the "Unification Church". This clearly is done in order to establish the idea that these companies are tied to the church. But anyone who has worked at a church or other non-profit organization knows full well that you cannot operate a for-profit business such as manufacturing machined goods or guns under a non-profit organization such as a church. A church can create products related to the church that may see a profit (like selling CDs or books, for example), or they may realize gains from investment in property, but they can't just eliminate the tax liability associated with a profitable business by covering it up with their non-profit status. This is exactly why I find it very hard to believe that Kahr Arms is "owned by" the Unification Church, because if it was, it would be felony tax fraud.
3. It seems clear that at least some portion of Saeilo Inc. is owned by some organization that also holds other properties or businesses that are associated with the Unification Church, but whatever these holding companies are, they are not, in fact, the church itself. The "Rev." Sun Moon probably owns or has founded other companies that are not a part of the church, but which make a profit, and not limited only to the parent of Kahr Arms. In fact, at the time when the Washington Post was on crusade against Kahr and the Unification Church in their editorials, one of Sun Moon's holdings was none other than the Post's competitor, the Washington Times.
Now I am currently a part-time employee of a church. I am also an employee of a large multinational company. And I own my own business. Some of the profit from both my job at the company, and the profit from my own business, are donated to my church. In fact some of the money I make from my job at the church are given back to that church. That does not cause my company to be "owned by" the church of which I am a member. In fact my church has members who are mayors, senators, very prominent business owners and CEOs, etc. and there is no question that some of the money that is paid do these people as the fruit of their business finds its way back to my church. This is America, and we can spend our money however we like as long as it is legal, and it is perfectly legal for me to take 100% of the profit from my personal business and give it to a church if I see fit. The same goes for Justin Moon, and even Sun Moon even if he owns companies and gives that money directly to the church which he founded.
Likewise a few years ago I was a partner in a company that had both a for-profit business and we were in the process of beginning a non-profit leg of the business as well. This is, of course, perfectly legal and happens all the time. We fully intended to put money from the profit business into the non-profit. Non-profit organizations have to get money from somewhere.
Anyway, I know I have hijacked this thread bigtime but I agree with Keith, this is not a big deal to me about where the profits from Kahr are going. I know a great amount of the profit is going into the redevelopment of new guns and technology, paying staff, etc. A larger part is probably going to pay Justin Moon, who has earned it. What he does with that money is really none of my business. I don't see any evidence showing a direct link between the profit at Kahr Arms and the Unification Church. Such a direct link would likely be illegal and a much bigger issue than the 1999 wrongful death suit.
To bring this back on topic, By the way, I did seriously consider a PF9 and almost bought one. I may also eventually find myself owning a P11, PF9, P3AT or P32. I am impressed with all of the Kel-Tec pistols and wouldn't hesitate to buy one. I sold a piece of music equipment to finance my Kahr purchase, and if I had been unable to sell it then I would likely have wound up with a used PF9. I have nothing against Kel Tec but if you hold both of these guns in your hand it is hard to ignore the obvious difference in quality feel between a CW9 and a PF9. Even if the only difference was the trigger, it would be enough. I think it is worth the $40-50 price difference, especially considering the comparatively high failure rate of Kel-Tec pistols compared with Kahr. The CW9s are known to have issues with the magazine dropping when you fire the last round, which causes the slide to not lock open (mine did). CW9s are also known to have occasional light-strike issues (mine did), resulting from excessive buildup of metal filings in the striker channel during breakin. They are also known to require a protracted breakin period wherein they will have various niggles during the first 200-500 rounds. But the failures of Kel-Tec pistols are much more common and serious. I subscribed to the KTOG forums for a few months before making my choice and read all about the various PF9 issues, and you would be surprised at how many serious revisions the PF9s have gone through and they are still exhibiting issues in new pistols. Both companies are also very well regarded for customer service but of late, the rush on Kahr pistols due to the increase in CCW sales has made their CS lag, and their PM9s have had a barrel-peening issue that they seem to not be able to solve readily, but they just replace the barrels over and over for people with the issue. Kahr sent me a new magazine release to solve my mag drop problem and a detail-strip and cleaning of the upper fixed the light strikes for me.
If you are really considering a PF9 then I suggest going over to the KTOG and read that huge gigantic long thread about the history of the PF9 http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB. ... 1173985819" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (I don't know if you have to be a member to read it or not). It is very informative. The exhaustive list of issues with a CW9 is light strikes and magazine drops, and the fix for light strikes ranges from cleaning to a whole new upper depending on the cause, and the fix for magazine drops ranges from replacing the magazine release all the way to replacing the entire lower and magazine. In either case those usually are one-time, permanent fixes that result in a 100% reliable pistol. I bet fewer than 1 in 1000 CW9s have any issues at all, but I bet 10% of the PF9s have issues right out of the box.
non-conformist CHL holder
Re: kel-tec PF9: Opinions (1st hand, please)
propellerhead wrote:I had one and it suffered from that pin creep thing they talk about on KTOG forum. I sent it back to Keltec and they gave me a new frame. It's definitely not a range gun but I don't like carrying a gun that I haven't shot at least a few thousand rounds with. I couldn't see myself getting proficient with the PF-9 when shooting one box of ammo was painful. Then I saw this in the FAQ on the Kel-tec website...
Q : What is the expected life of a Kel-Tec firearm
A : All Kel-Tec firearms have an expected life of 6,000 rounds or more.
Just 6,000?! No 20,000 round torture test? So by the time I feel confident with the gun, it's almost halfway through its life expectancy?
I no longer own it.
but they have a lifetime warranty and Kel-Tec is good for it too. I would read up over at KTOG but I bet some people have already put more than that down the tube of a PF9
-
propellerhead
- Senior Member
- Posts: 917
- Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 9:12 am
- Location: The part of Texas that isn't like Texas
Re: kel-tec PF9: Opinions (1st hand, please)
I'm sure someone has put more than 6,000 rounds through a Kel-tec. But when you have one pistol that has an expected life of 6,000 rounds and another one that has an expected life of 60,000 rounds, which one is more likely to last longer? Which one will show more wear and tear after 1,000 rounds?AggieC05 wrote:but they have a lifetime warranty and Kel-Tec is good for it too. I would read up over at KTOG but I bet some people have already put more than that down the tube of a PF9
The good thing about Kel-tecs are the price. Not a bad price for a disposable gun.
Re: kel-tec PF9: Opinions (1st hand, please)
You would think, but a Kahr CW9 has a stainless upper and is absolutely made for a lot more than 10K rounds. I know people with more than 15K rounds through a Kahr without a single hitch.propellerhead wrote:AggieC05 wrote: The good thing about Kel-tecs are the price. Not a bad price for a disposable gun.
You can't even get a PF9 with a stainless slide and barrel. That alone is worth the extra $40 in price. There is no comparing the triggers, and I bet the Kahr will last at least twice as long (in terms of round count) than a Kel-Tec regardless of the warranty. Sure it is good that K-T will replace a bad pistol over time but I would rather have one that won't fail to begin with. The best warranty is the one you never have to use.
Like I said, I think the Kahr is a better value for the money, even though it is a little more expensive. And if what you are looking for is a double-stack subcompact 9mm I think a Glock 26 is a better value than a P11 even though it is nearly 1.5x the price. This is just MHO. For a gun you only expect to shoot occasionally or in an emergency (car gun, stick in the front drawer gun, etc.) then I think the Kel-Tecs are a great choice, but for a daily carry and something you want to practice with regularly, IMHO I'd go for something with a few more notches of quality and spend the extra bucks.
I probably will eventually wind up with a P3AT or a P32, and I really want a Kel-Tec SU16. I'm not knocking Kel-Tec. But for one and only carry pistol, I think there are better choices at competitive prices.
non-conformist CHL holder
Re: kel-tec PF9: Opinions (1st hand, please)
That's the oldest trick in the book!quoheleth wrote: Edit: Also interested in price info. Best price I've found in the county is "about" $265. Salesman couldn't find his price sheet when I called...
That's they way they get you off the phone and into the shop to find out that is is more like 350.00.
Similar to "Bait & Switch", only in this case he is switching the price and not the item.
Alan - ANYTHING I write is MY OPINION only.
Certified Curmudgeon - But, my German Shepherd loves me!
NRA-Life, USN '65-'69 & '73-'79: RM1
1911's RULE!
Certified Curmudgeon - But, my German Shepherd loves me!
NRA-Life, USN '65-'69 & '73-'79: RM1
1911's RULE!
Re: kel-tec PF9: Opinions (1st hand, please)
Lowest price I have ever seen on a PF9 was at the Saxet Gun Show, $330 for hard chrome and about $300 for blued. Buds Gun Shop is out of stock but had them as low as $285 for blued. Who knows what price they will be when they come back into stock.
non-conformist CHL holder
Re: kel-tec PF9: Opinions (1st hand, please)
I mean no disrespect to anyone who's commented Kahr vs. KT, but my numbers show price difference of $100+:
See Kahr CW9: http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... s_id/18442" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; [$409]
See KT PF9: http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... /411535236" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; [$285]
For $100, that's a lot of ammo, a holster (and band-aids
) in KT's favor.
FWIW, I double-checked my LGS, and he said that as long as his new shipment hasn't gone up from HIS supplier since his last price check, he will continue to offer the LCP, PF9, and P3AT all below $300. In fact, he had 6 LCPs at $279 yesterday - but all were gone by the end of the business day.
Q
See Kahr CW9: http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... s_id/18442" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; [$409]
See KT PF9: http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... /411535236" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; [$285]
For $100, that's a lot of ammo, a holster (and band-aids
) in KT's favor.FWIW, I double-checked my LGS, and he said that as long as his new shipment hasn't gone up from HIS supplier since his last price check, he will continue to offer the LCP, PF9, and P3AT all below $300. In fact, he had 6 LCPs at $279 yesterday - but all were gone by the end of the business day.
Q
Texas CHL received 07/24/09 and being used daily.
Re: kel-tec PF9: Opinions (1st hand, please)
Yes but Bud's Gun Shop does not have the PF9 in stock at that price. Their price has gone up on the Kahr since I bought mine back in September. Bud's had it for $389 delivered, and I got it for $370+ tax at a gun show. Maybe you can't get one for that price anymore. The same gun show had the aforementioned $330 hard-chrome PF9s and blued for right at $300.
non-conformist CHL holder