Carrying "Other" Firearm

[ScottDLS]

OK, at the risk of starting a flame war...I was going to title this "Concealed Carry Machinegun", but I tried that on packing.org when it was still around and had to go into "internet hiding" for 5 years.

Anyway, I want to hear if anybody out there concealed carries a firearm other than a handgun. Like a rifle, shotgun, short barreled rifle, short barreled shotgun, etc. I know with a full sized rifle or shotgun it would be pretty hard. I know you can OC a rifle or shotgun, but maybe you just want to cover it up. What about a shotgun in your vehicle, obscured from view? How about a full-auto like a MAC10 or mini-Uzi. There are a few legally registered ones out there. I seem to have read somewhere that there was case law that a machinegun, even a pistol size one like a mini-Uzi, was not a handgun under Texas law. Therefore no CHL required. If it IS a handgun then should be legal (though perhaps not wise) WITH a CHL. I just kind of wondered if anyone had a reason to carry something other than a handgun or maybe some National Firearms Act (NFA) registered weapons. And YES...I own one(or more) of these, but NO I don't pack them other than to the range. I really am curious whether other CHL'ers carry firearms that don't fit the Texas legal definition of a handgun.

Thoughts? Flames? Disparaging comments?

[McKnife]

I (legally) carried my AR-15 in my backpack every week while I was leaving my apartment for my vehicle to head to the range.

The barrel stuck out at the top of the backpack about 4 inches which I simply covered with my Astros hat. haha -- makes me smile every time I think about it because I consistently walked passed University Patrol in their cruisers and just smiled. tee hee - If they only knew.

[battalion74]

I do carry my M4gery and Commando in a rifle case when moving around, to range or ranch. But I don't have a rifle case for my CAR-15. I live in Corpus Christi and the way I look at it is, if the police get their ARs stolen from their vehicles here, then way would I want to announce that I have one too. Ok, it was only one police officer that had his patrol rifle stolen, at least the only one reported. I usually carry my pistol on me too, just in case someone realizes what it is while I'm driving around.

[gregthehand]

I keep a shotgun under the backseat of my F-150 in a Du-Ha box (those ones that cabelas sells). I also too an i bolt and bolted that to the floor. Then I took a masterlock combo lock with a long shank and ran it through the i bolt and then the shot gun can lock at a thin point of the stock. It's a bit hard to explain but if anyone wants pictures let me know and I can probably take some. In my 1984 FJ-60 Land Cruiser I haven't found a really good spot to secure a long gun so i haven't yet. I'm looking at a couple different options though. I also have a XR650L Honda street legal dirt bike that I would like to get a scarrab for. I won't carry a long gun on the street but I would like something I can use when driving it offroad. Everyonce in a while me and my buddy will go camping on some large ranches of people we know. If we take our bikes out I usually take my AK since it's an underfolder. My backback is tall enough where I can tick it in there folded down. I still present somewhat of a site when driving down the highway so I usually leave early in the morning. Sometime though if I don't want to get up that early I just truck my boke with my gear out to our family ranch and then meet him at his buddies place which is about 2 hours away on a bike. By the way I have a rack on my bike so I don't have to wear the big pack. But I have an additional Camel Back Mule pack that I got when I was in the Army that I do wear on the trip. It carries a lot of gear but mainly it's nice to be able to have a drink while on the bike. Man I rambled on for such a simple questions didn't I!

[KRM45]

You could be subject to arrest for carrying a prohibited weapon. PC46.05 makes this an offense, with a "defense to prosecution" if it is appropriately registered. If you don't have the documents in your posession you will very likely take the ride. Even if you have the documents, the officer could still decide to file the charge and let the DA decide whether to prosecute or not.

Of course you may not have that sort of trouble, but is it worth it? Are you sure you want to be shooting a full auto weapon in a defensive shooting situation? Do you know where each of your bullets will end up?

[apostate]

.

[Rex B]

If I am going to be out of town, in sparsely-populated ares, I throw my SU16 in the trunk with a few mags of .223.
Alternately, I have a couple of beater leverguns for that, which would be a bit more politically correct if I had to get it out.

I think about the story a few years ago about a DPS officer shot at a traffic stop. A citizen witnessed it and shot the BG with his deer rifle.
I'd hate to see such a thing and not be able to do anything about it, or be unarmed and threatened as a witness.

[blue]

-
Please consider that if Anything "Happens"- They WILL keep your weapon for evidence.

May I suggest-Keep it simple-Carry ONLY- easy to replace weapons, that are rock solid reliable as you can get, AND have a replacement at home.

Do Not carry "special" or "heirloom" weapons that the loss of would be a big regret. (evidence weapons are NOT treated with any care usually)

-

[Reloader]

that was no story, It happened!..about the DPS trooper. Happened in 1975. Killed the DPS trooper, and two deer hunters saw it, took action and were rewarded with custom made .45 1911's for the great job of saving the tax payers' money. It was in a story in the american rifleman. I believe it was west of Abilene on I-20. Great shot and great citizens.

[NcongruNt]

I posted an overview of the law and carrying NFA arms. As always, I am not a lawyer, but I have cited the specific sections of the law in my post and you can easily find them for yourself.

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 15#p249541" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (original post/thread)

There's always this. :)



Considered by the feds to be an AOW firearm. Texas doesn't have the same classifications as the feds, but would probably consider it a Short-barreled firearm, under 46.01(10). These are ordinarily prohibited in 46.05(a)(3), with a defense to prosecution outlined in 46.05(c) - you have the NFA tax stamp (registration, according to the TPC).

I highlighted the defense to prosecution (not an exception to the law) because this means you can be arrested and charged with Possession and/or Transport of a Prohibited Weapon under 46.05(a)(3), and could have to defend yourself in court showing evidence that you met the provision in 46.05(c). A real pain. It is legal to carry provided you meet the requirements, though. I'm sure that some DA could argue that it is a handgun because it theoretically could be fired with one hand, but 46.01(5) defines a hand gun as "any firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand.", and this weapon is specifically designed to be used two-handed (with a vertical foregrip), and a good lawyer should be able to have that argument thrown out, especially given the fact that operation of the gun requires cycling the action which necessitates two hands.

Other than NFA firearms, there's no distinction in the penal code as to the concealed or open possession of non-handgun firearms in ordinary circumstances beyond the specific prohibition regarding locations where firearms may not be carried in general such as prisons and the like (provided that you can legally possess it in the first place) - at least that I'm aware of.

Also, I am not a lawyer. Just calling it as I see it in the TPC. Case law could make other distinctions I'm not aware of.

[ScottDLS]

I posted an overview of the law and carrying NFA arms. As always, I am not a lawyer, but I have cited the specific sections of the law in my post and you can easily find them for yourself.

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 15#p249541" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (original post/thread)

There's always this. :)



Considered by the feds to be an AOW firearm. Texas doesn't have the same classifications as the feds, but would probably consider it a Short-barreled firearm, under 46.01(10). These are ordinarily prohibited in 46.05(a)(3), with a defense to prosecution outlined in 46.05(c) - you have the NFA tax stamp (registration, according to the TPC).

I highlighted the defense to prosecution (not an exception to the law) because this means you can be arrested and charged with Possession and/or Transport of a Prohibited Weapon under 46.05(a)(3), and could have to defend yourself in court showing evidence that you met the provision in 46.05(c). A real pain. It is legal to carry provided you meet the requirements, though. I'm sure that some DA could argue that it is a handgun because it theoretically could be fired with one hand, but 46.01(5) defines a hand gun as "any firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand.", and this weapon is specifically designed to be used two-handed (with a vertical foregrip), and a good lawyer should be able to have that argument thrown out, especially given the fact that operation of the gun requires cycling the action which necessitates two hands.

Other than NFA firearms, there's no distinction in the penal code as to the concealed or open possession of non-handgun firearms in ordinary circumstances beyond the specific prohibition regarding locations where firearms may not be carried in general such as prisons and the like (provided that you can legally possess it in the first place) - at least that I'm aware of.

Also, I am not a lawyer. Just calling it as I see it in the TPC. Case law could make other distinctions I'm not aware of.

Thanks NcongruNt. Is that a Serbu Shorty? Cool gun and quite concealable under a coat or something.

You know this whole issue of "Defense to Prosecution" vs. not an offense comes up here all the time. I have the original Texas Handgun Law (1995-1996) book from my original CHL class in 1996. Until at least 1997, carrying a handgun WITH a CHL was just a "Defense to Prosecution" under the law (TPC 46.02). That means everybody that carried was supposedly subject to arrest and having to prove their defense subject to prosecutor whim. I don't buy it. I seem to remember somebody pointing out that if a law officer purposely arrested you for something for which they knew you had a defense to prosecution, that they were guilty of a civil rights violation. That's why I carry copies of my NFA firearms registrations with me when I take them out to shoot (also the range usually wants to see them). Also there are still a number of handgun related parts of TPC where CHL is still just a defense to prosecution (30.05, 30.06 in a government owned premises, and a couple others I think.

If I am arrested for something that is not against the law or for which I have a defense to prosecution, I will vigorously defend myself and engage counsel. Perhaps I am naive in believing that I have a very high probability of prevailing, but I refuse to live my life in fear of doing something that is legal, but not popular with particular politically motivated government officials. The law and particularly criminal law is not supposed to give you a list of things you CAN, do but proscribe that which you cannot.

[shootthesheet]

I find it a shame that we have to consider what we are allowed to do so a government doesn't punish us for exercising this civil right.

I wouldn't carry a non-select fire automatic weapon even if it was okay with the overlords. My problem is that how I exercise my civil rights is no concern of any government. They don't give me any rights and I refuse to stand-by while they infringe on them. The only reason they exist is to protect our rights. If they don't do that I don't see they are of much use to anyone. That said, I pray for every one of them.

[NcongruNt]

Thanks NcongruNt. Is that a Serbu Shorty? Cool gun and quite concealable under a coat or something.

You know this whole issue of "Defense to Prosecution" vs. not an offense comes up here all the time. I have the original Texas Handgun Law (1995-1996) book from my original CHL class in 1996. Until at least 1997, carrying a handgun WITH a CHL was just a "Defense to Prosecution" under the law (TPC 46.02). That means everybody that carried was supposedly subject to arrest and having to prove their defense subject to prosecutor whim. I don't buy it. I seem to remember somebody pointing out that if a law officer purposely arrested you for something for which they knew you had a defense to prosecution, that they were guilty of a civil rights violation. That's why I carry copies of my NFA firearms registrations with me when I take them out to shoot (also the range usually wants to see them). Also there are still a number of handgun related parts of TPC where CHL is still just a defense to prosecution (30.05, 30.06 in a government owned premises, and a couple others I think.

If I am arrested for something that is not against the law or for which I have a defense to prosecution, I will vigorously defend myself and engage counsel. Perhaps I am naive in believing that I have a very high probability of prevailing, but I refuse to live my life in fear of doing something that is legal, but not popular with particular politically motivated government officials. The law and particularly criminal law is not supposed to give you a list of things you CAN, do but proscribe that which you cannot.

Yes, it is the Serbu Shorty. I agree that it could be relatively concealable under something like a duster or trench coat.

The difference between the "defense to prosecution" with CHL and with carrying NFA arms is simple. Largely, the CHL is a much more commonly understood idea, and has been in the media quite a bit over the years. NFA arms, on the other hand, are largely unknown to most folks I have come across. It is often a surprise (if not shock) to most folks that I discuss the topic with that you can legally own a machine gun (or suppressor, or short-barreled shotgun/rifle). For your average Joe, the common understanding is that these items are completely illegal.

Now, the police are pulled from the citizenry. They will have the same common mis-perceptions when entering the police force that everyone else does. Unless all of those misconceptions are specifically addressed, they will remain there. While every academy should address the specific legalities of Texas Law concerning NFA weapons, that instruction may or may not be emphasized, and preconceived notions are hard to overcome without specific focus and repetition of instruction.

Weapons that fall under the NFA have a social stigma attached to them in general, like it or not. Take the all-too-common "why would you need a gun" mindset of many folks and multiply it several times over for NFA weapons. Get pulled over with an NFA weapon and a relatively uneducated police officer suddenly faced with a Serbu Shorty or suppressed handgun or any other number of NFA items, and you're suddenly in for at minimum a very long traffic stop (during which your gun will be likely taken from you) while the officer contacts a superior to check the TPC regarding your posession of said weapon. It can get quite worse from that point depending on where you are and who you're dealing with, up to arrest and having to defend yourself in court.

I'm not trying to discourage you from exercising your rights and freedoms here. I'm only pointing out the fact that there is a price to pay for doing so, whether it should happen that way or not. I personally cannot afford the extra hassle required in lawyer's fees and court time to make a defense to prosecution for legally carrying an NFA weapon. That may not be the case for you.

[mgood]

I keep a shotgun under the backseat of my F-150 in a Du-Ha box (those ones that cabelas sells). I also too an i bolt and bolted that to the floor. Then I took a masterlock combo lock with a long shank and ran it through the i bolt and then the shot gun can lock at a thin point of the stock. It's a bit hard to explain but if anyone wants pictures let me know and I can probably take some.

I'd love to see pics.
I saw a box like that once and I've been planning to get one to carry my Mini-14 under the back seat of my extended-cab Chevy.
I've been cooking up schemes to lock the compartment and/or lock the gun to the compartment. I've thought of some sort of cable lock through the gun (probably through the open action, in my case) and to something solid and not easily removable.
I just discovered that Cabelas sells a lock that keeps the seat down.

[asleepatthereel]

that was no story, It happened!..about the DPS trooper. Happened in 1975. Killed the DPS trooper, and two deer hunters saw it, took action and were rewarded with custom made .45 1911's for the great job of saving the tax payers' money. It was in a story in the american rifleman. I believe it was west of Abilene on I-20. Great shot and great citizens.