Rules for Face-To-Face sale?

propellerhead · Post by **propellerhead** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:43 pm

What should the seller do to cover himself/herself on a FTF sale? What about the buyer?

I thought I saw this posted here before but I can't seem to find it again.

KinnyLee · Post by **KinnyLee** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:46 pm

Two copy of the bill of sales. One for you and one for the buyer. It should list the buyer and seller's name, the make and model of the firearm sold, the serial number, the date sold as well as any other disclaimers on it. Both the buy and seller should sign both copies of the bill of sale.

Please feel free to add or correct me here.

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:51 pm

It simple. No records are required, no background check is required.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1

B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b16

(B16) What record-keeping procedures should be followed when two private individuals want to engage in a firearms transaction? [Back]

When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not re-quire any record keeping. A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary under Federal law for a Federal fire-arms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are "same-State" residents. Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to some-one who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA. See 18 U.S. C. Â§Â§ 922(g) and (n). However, as stated above, there are no GCA-required records to be completed by either party to the transfer.

propellerhead · Post by **propellerhead** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:05 pm

Nice! So basically, there is no required record keeping. A bill of sale sounds like a good thing to cover both sides though. Do I just write one up? Is there a sample out there that's being commonly used already?

jbirds1210 · Post by **jbirds1210** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:31 pm

Is there a "reasonable" number of guns bought/sold annually before an FFL is suggested? I am assuming that the average person who might buy or sell three or four guns a year is not violating the law. I just have to wonder what the line is between hobbiest and dealer.....or is it spelled out somewhere? Thanks.
Jason

KBCraig · Post by **KBCraig** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:39 pm

jbirds1210 wrote:Is there a "reasonable" number of guns bought/sold annually before an FFL is suggested? I am assuming that the average person who might buy or sell three or four guns a year is not violating the law. I just have to wonder what the line is between hobbiest and dealer.....or is it spelled out somewhere? Thanks.
Jason

No, it's not spelled out anywhere. You're required to have an FFL if you're "engaged in the business" of buying and selling firearms. That's the firmest answer you'll get from BATF.

Kevin

gigag04 · Post by **gigag04** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:45 pm

I don't even do a bill of sale. There are no records of my guns except for an FFL transfer - a 4413 (which supposedly get destroyed) of the Gold Cup my dad passed down to me.

I don't like paper trails. It's the radical right wing conservative coming out in me.

-nick

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:35 pm

gigag04 wrote:I don't even do a bill of sale. There are no records of my guns except for an FFL transfer - a 4413 (which supposedly get destroyed) of the Gold Cup my dad passed down to me.

I don't like paper trails. It's the radical right wing conservative coming out in me.

-nick

4473's do not get destroyed. FFL's keep them indefinately.

gigag04 · Post by **gigag04** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:39 pm

txinvestigator wrote:
gigag04 wrote:I don't even do a bill of sale. There are no records of my guns except for an FFL transfer - a 4413 (which supposedly get destroyed) of the Gold Cup my dad passed down to me.

I don't like paper trails. It's the radical right wing conservative coming out in me.

-nick
4473's do not get destroyed. FFL's keep them indefinately.

Does the ATF really come by and take info from them? Heard it out there...but I'm not sure its true.

-nick

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:33 pm

gigag04 wrote:
txinvestigator wrote:
gigag04 wrote:I don't even do a bill of sale. There are no records of my guns except for an FFL transfer - a 4413 (which supposedly get destroyed) of the Gold Cup my dad passed down to me.

I don't like paper trails. It's the radical right wing conservative coming out in me.

-nick
4473's do not get destroyed. FFL's keep them indefinately.
Does the ATF really come by and take info from them? Heard it out there...but I'm not sure its true.

-nick

No, the ATF cannot do that unless the reason meets specific guidelines. FFL's keep the 4473's.

rodnocker1 · Post by **rodnocker1** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:38 pm

If they are trying to do a trace on a weapon used in a crime. Also, and correct me if I am wrong, should you decide to quite being an FFL 01, you must turn your bound book (i.e. Acquisitions and Dispositions) in to them.

propellerhead · Post by **propellerhead** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:53 pm

I can see how some sort of Bill Of Sale would cover the seller or buyer in the event that the gun was used in a crime. Would a letter stating Buyer A bought <description of this gun including serial number:> from Seller B on <date>, to be signed by both parties with their TX DL numbers on it be sufficient?

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:32 am

propellerhead wrote:I can see how some sort of Bill Of Sale would cover the seller or buyer in the event that the gun was used in a crime. Would a letter stating Buyer A bought <description of this gun including serial number:> from Seller B on <date>, to be signed by both parties with their TX DL numbers on it be sufficient?

Sufficient for what?

If I am buying FTF from you, I am not signing squat.

propellerhead · Post by **propellerhead** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:47 am

txinvestigator wrote:Sufficient for what?

Sufficient to cover the seller or buyer's behind. If the gun is used by the Buyer in a crime and was later found in a trash can, wouldn't that trace back to the original owner (assume it was the seller)? Or if the seller had a shady past and used the gun in a crime and is now owned by the buyer, wouldn't that be a concern? Maybe I watch too much TV but I would hate to be dragged into some long investigation when all I did was buy or sell a gun. I was thinking some sort of document that says the transfer occured on a specified date would minimize the risk of getting involved in the investigation of someone else's wrong doing.

txinvestigator wrote:If I am buying FTF from you, I am not signing squat.

Why not?

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:09 am

propellerhead wrote:
txinvestigator wrote:Sufficient for what?
Sufficient to cover the seller or buyer's behind. If the gun is used by the Buyer in a crime and was later found in a trash can, wouldn't that trace back to the original owner (assume it was the seller)? Or if the seller had a shady past and used the gun in a crime and is now owned by the buyer, wouldn't that be a concern? Maybe I watch too much TV but I would hate to be dragged into some long investigation when all I did was buy or sell a gun. I was thinking some sort of document that says the transfer occured on a specified date would minimize the risk of getting involved in the investigation of someone else's wrong doing.

Guns are traded ALL of the time. ATF contacts you, you simply don't have the gin anymore.

From a buyers POV, why would I want the govt to be able to have more information on me than they already do?

txinvestigator wrote:If I am buying FTF from you, I am not signing squat.
Why not?

There is no legal requirement to do so. And there is alreay enough infringment on my RIGHT to own arms.

Oh yeah, and my wfe would say I am just a PITA too.

But ya'll knew that already.