What are your thoughts..
BAT
Statistics on BG intent ?
Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton
Statistics on BG intent ?
Ok, the conversation all stated when several of us at work was talking about the burger king shooting, of course there is always a few anti-gun people in the room. One person stated that it is proven that IF you just give the BG what he wants he will NOT harm anyone, and of course he could not prove what what was stated.. The question is what is the real statistics on what BG have done? Is there any web sites that shows this info ? And, of course as we now see, the GG, was hurt and could have been killed over a few dollars. Now, don't get me wrong, I might have done the same thing, except for the argue with the BG, now I guess I would argue with him, after he had a few holes in him
What are your thoughts..
BAT
What are your thoughts..
BAT
-
srothstein
- Senior Member
- Posts: 5322
- Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:27 pm
- Location: Luling, TX
Re: Statistics on BG intent ?
I don't know of any one who has statistics on cooperating versus resisting bad guys. I find it hard to believe that this research has not been done (hmm, PhD dissertation maybe?) but I don't know of any.
There is a lot of anecdotal evidence on both sides. We can all think of cases where someone cooperated and ended up dead anyway and we can all find a lot of cases where the BG got what he wanted and left.
As a general rule, banks still tell their employees to cooperate with robbers. Most convenience stores and places like that also have those policies. Their attitude is that the insurance will replace the money but it cannot replace the life of the employee.
And, as a general rule, anyone who remembers the 9/11 hijackers knows that cooperating is not always a good idea.
My best professional advice is to take each case on an individual basis. In a quick robbery of a busy store (like a Burger King), cooperation might be the best idea. In a case where they want to move the witnesses or employees to a different location (like taking the clerks to the back room), it is almost always a bad idea.
There is a lot of anecdotal evidence on both sides. We can all think of cases where someone cooperated and ended up dead anyway and we can all find a lot of cases where the BG got what he wanted and left.
As a general rule, banks still tell their employees to cooperate with robbers. Most convenience stores and places like that also have those policies. Their attitude is that the insurance will replace the money but it cannot replace the life of the employee.
And, as a general rule, anyone who remembers the 9/11 hijackers knows that cooperating is not always a good idea.
My best professional advice is to take each case on an individual basis. In a quick robbery of a busy store (like a Burger King), cooperation might be the best idea. In a case where they want to move the witnesses or employees to a different location (like taking the clerks to the back room), it is almost always a bad idea.
Steve Rothstein
Re: Statistics on BG intent ?
If he takes anything of mine, he has harmed me in doing so. If he threatens me in any way that causes me undue fear and stress, he has harmed me in doing so. It's too late to claim that he will not harm anyone at that point.bat1 wrote:One person stated that it is proven that IF you just give the BG what he wants he will NOT harm anyone,
My list so far. I'm sure there are plenty more, but I'm only adding the ones I can find links to documentation of. If you find any others, please add them to this thread, or in the comments on the blog, and I'll update the list.The question is what is the real statistics on what BG have done? Is there any web sites that shows this info ?
Re: Statistics on BG intent ?
GREAT !
I extracted highlights, removed the dead links.. and posted this..
Thanks KD5NRH .
http://kd5nrh.blogspot.com/2008/03/just ... -want.html
Saturday, March 22, 2008
Just give them what they want...
-----------------------
Every time I see another bleeding heart telling people to just comply with criminals' demands, I dig up one of these articles for the response. I figured I might as well stack up a bunch in one place for convenience. Feel free to use the list in your own responses to idiots.
From reading the stories, none of these victims tried to fight back before being wounded or killed. If anyone has other links to news articles about compliant victims being killed or seriously injured, post them in the comments and I'll update the list from time to time.
-----------------------
Unprovoked shooting of store manager during robbery.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2845055
Police say when Knapton came in the area, the men approached him, and then shots were fired.
Detective Jared Wihongi, spokesman for the Salt Lake Police Department, says, "The manager was in proximity. The shooting appears to be unprovoked, and that's why we're treating these individuals as dangerous, and we want them off the street."
---------------------
Two guards killed during robbery.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/04/us/04 ... st.html?hp
“We’re looking for an armed and dangerous male who has no regard for life at all,” he said. “He never gave them any opportunity to hand over the money. He just fired at these men with the intent to kill them. It was an assassination.”
-----------------------
Student robbed and killed
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... PL5F71.DTL
Homicide investigators told Canon Sr. that two boys and a girl in a passing car saw his son walking alone, pulled over ahead of him. Two of them got out and walked back to him and pointed a gun in his face.
"They demanded his wallet, but my boy didn't have any money," he said.
Authorities told the father that the gunman ordered the girl to go through the student's pockets, and when she told him she had found a set of keys, she called him by his name. Fearing he could now be identified, the gunman shot Canon Jones II.
-----------------------
Man shot in head after robbery
http://www.lvrj.com/news/13557332.html
The gunman got out, pointed a rifle at the victim and demanded money. The victim handed over his wallet and headed for his car, but before he could get in, the gunman fired two shots.
-----------------------
Store owner shot in robbery.
http://www.dailybreeze.com/ci_9264333
He walks in - `Give me the money,"' said Gardena City Manager Mitch Lansdell. "She runs away from the cash register. He turns and just `boom, boom.' He is reaching in the cash register. She is screaming as she is going to the ground and he shoots her three more times."
-----------------------
Even if they don't intentionally kill you, it may still not go well: Robbery victim suffocated by gag
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/14391267/detail.html
Authorities believe 21-year-old Matthew Cherry died from suffocation after his face was covered with duct tape during the robbery. The incident happened shortly after 6 p.m. Sunday night.
I extracted highlights, removed the dead links.. and posted this..
Thanks KD5NRH .
http://kd5nrh.blogspot.com/2008/03/just ... -want.html
Saturday, March 22, 2008
Just give them what they want...
-----------------------
Every time I see another bleeding heart telling people to just comply with criminals' demands, I dig up one of these articles for the response. I figured I might as well stack up a bunch in one place for convenience. Feel free to use the list in your own responses to idiots.
From reading the stories, none of these victims tried to fight back before being wounded or killed. If anyone has other links to news articles about compliant victims being killed or seriously injured, post them in the comments and I'll update the list from time to time.
-----------------------
Unprovoked shooting of store manager during robbery.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2845055
Police say when Knapton came in the area, the men approached him, and then shots were fired.
Detective Jared Wihongi, spokesman for the Salt Lake Police Department, says, "The manager was in proximity. The shooting appears to be unprovoked, and that's why we're treating these individuals as dangerous, and we want them off the street."
---------------------
Two guards killed during robbery.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/04/us/04 ... st.html?hp
“We’re looking for an armed and dangerous male who has no regard for life at all,” he said. “He never gave them any opportunity to hand over the money. He just fired at these men with the intent to kill them. It was an assassination.”
-----------------------
Student robbed and killed
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... PL5F71.DTL
Homicide investigators told Canon Sr. that two boys and a girl in a passing car saw his son walking alone, pulled over ahead of him. Two of them got out and walked back to him and pointed a gun in his face.
"They demanded his wallet, but my boy didn't have any money," he said.
Authorities told the father that the gunman ordered the girl to go through the student's pockets, and when she told him she had found a set of keys, she called him by his name. Fearing he could now be identified, the gunman shot Canon Jones II.
-----------------------
Man shot in head after robbery
http://www.lvrj.com/news/13557332.html
The gunman got out, pointed a rifle at the victim and demanded money. The victim handed over his wallet and headed for his car, but before he could get in, the gunman fired two shots.
-----------------------
Store owner shot in robbery.
http://www.dailybreeze.com/ci_9264333
He walks in - `Give me the money,"' said Gardena City Manager Mitch Lansdell. "She runs away from the cash register. He turns and just `boom, boom.' He is reaching in the cash register. She is screaming as she is going to the ground and he shoots her three more times."
-----------------------
Even if they don't intentionally kill you, it may still not go well: Robbery victim suffocated by gag
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/14391267/detail.html
Authorities believe 21-year-old Matthew Cherry died from suffocation after his face was covered with duct tape during the robbery. The incident happened shortly after 6 p.m. Sunday night.
Re: Statistics on BG intent ?
There is not a comprehensive study that answers your question.
You can start by searching the web for Gary Kleck and John Lott. Both have written extensively on the use of firearms for self-defense. Their conclusion is that victims who resist criminals generally fare better than those who cooperate. Here is a jumping-off point: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What's interesting about Dr. Kleck is that he set out to prove the opposite of the conclusion that he came to. That is unusual, as most researchers select the statistics to support the hypothesis that they held before conducting the work.
Another informative search is for "workplace robbery homicide statistics." Many robberies occur in workplaces. About 1,000 a year result in the death of a robbery victim, and an unknown number result in injury.
It is categorically not true that if you cooperate with a robbery, he will not injure you. Robbers gratuitously injure and kill their victims thousands of times a year, force victims to go to ATMs and withdraw money (kidnapping), and add rape to robbery.
The real question for those in denial is why, when a robber has already committed one of the six worst crimes on the books*, they are willing to trust him not to commit another.
*murder, kidnapping, rape, aggravated robbery, burglary, arson
- Jim
You can start by searching the web for Gary Kleck and John Lott. Both have written extensively on the use of firearms for self-defense. Their conclusion is that victims who resist criminals generally fare better than those who cooperate. Here is a jumping-off point: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What's interesting about Dr. Kleck is that he set out to prove the opposite of the conclusion that he came to. That is unusual, as most researchers select the statistics to support the hypothesis that they held before conducting the work.
Another informative search is for "workplace robbery homicide statistics." Many robberies occur in workplaces. About 1,000 a year result in the death of a robbery victim, and an unknown number result in injury.
It is categorically not true that if you cooperate with a robbery, he will not injure you. Robbers gratuitously injure and kill their victims thousands of times a year, force victims to go to ATMs and withdraw money (kidnapping), and add rape to robbery.
The real question for those in denial is why, when a robber has already committed one of the six worst crimes on the books*, they are willing to trust him not to commit another.
*murder, kidnapping, rape, aggravated robbery, burglary, arson
- Jim
Fear, anger, hatred, and greed. The devil's all-you-can-eat buffet.
Re: Statistics on BG intent ?
Couldn't find a fresh link for the first dead one, but in the process of searching, I did run across this one for the list:
http://www.dothaneagle.com/dea/news/loc ... 017/16619/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Definite case in favor of doing whatever you have to to not let the attacker take you to a secluded place.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,306194,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
From the story and other excerpts, it appears both victims were face down on the floor when shot.
http://www.dothaneagle.com/dea/news/loc ... 017/16619/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Definite case in favor of doing whatever you have to to not let the attacker take you to a secluded place.
This appears to be some followup on the restaurant manager incident:Wimbish said he was approached by Green about buying a car from Value Auto Sales where Wimbish worked as a salesman. Moments after they had completed a test drive of a 2001 Mercury Grand Marquis, Green forced Wimbish at gunpoint to drive him to a wooded area near Grace Missionary Baptist Church, where Wimbish said he was beaten and stabbed.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,306194,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
From the story and other excerpts, it appears both victims were face down on the floor when shot.
Bobo admitted shooting Chris Caris, 33, and Josh Cole, 18, in the backs of their heads Friday night in an apparent robbery at Bellacino's restaurant. He had been fired at the restaurant in May for theft.
Re: Statistics on BG intent ?
I do not have any statistical data to support my theory, but it seems to be a more violent world due to a liberal society lacking respect for traditional values. It appears that in ever-broadening elements of our society, the life of a human being has been devalued to the point where the BG no longer robs, he robs and kills without a moral conscience not only the intended victim but any innocent bystanders as well. While every situation is different, given the opportunity, I would resist with deadly force to protect my life and the life of my family.
"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism—by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide." The Monument Builders, Ayn Rand (1962)
Re: Statistics on BG intent ?
In the case of the burger King, the BG was at the counter and lets say your were not close but just sitting down enjoying whopper. Would you go and get involved, as the one man did ? OR wait till he moved, or turned in your direction ? IF he did not move or turned toward you would you have reacted ?TacShot wrote:I do not have any statistical data to support my theory, but it seems to be a more violent world due to a liberal society lacking respect for traditional values. It appears that in ever-broadening elements of our society, the life of a human being has been devalued to the point where the BG no longer robs, he robs and kills without a moral conscience not only the intended victim but any innocent bystanders as well. While every situation is different, given the opportunity, I would resist with deadly force to protect my life and the life of my family.
As for me, I "now" realize that I might have reacted BUT would have moved to behind a pillar or move a trash can (box) to put between me and him.. of course thinking he is focused on the money.. See I hope this opens everyone eyes to realize what has been stated, the BG could still shoot back.
I was taught on the Fire Department, and it always stuck with me when I went to a big fire or any stressful situation , Always remember the three C's ALWAYS REMAIN Calm Cool and Collective .. Its not easy, but it does help..
BAT