Army stops making Tungsten munitions, causes cancer

Gun, shooting and equipment discussions unrelated to CHL issues

Moderator: carlson1

Post Reply
User avatar
kalipsocs
Senior Member
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:43 am

Army stops making Tungsten munitions, causes cancer

Post by kalipsocs »

Eco-friendly to everyone except our men and women in uniform. I'll take lead and hot soapy water please...
In the Military, Toxic Tungsten is Everywhere
By David Hambling EmailApril 21, 2009 | 1:56:00 PMCategories: Ammo and Munitions, Science!

The Army has stopped producing so-called "green" training rounds, because of research showing that the bullets' main ingredient may be more toxic than previously thought. But that element, tungsten, is also in an array of other ammunition and munitions, as well. Which means all sorts of rockets, missiles, and anti-tank rounds may present an environmental hazard and a health risk.

Tungsten was introduced to weaponry as an alternative to depleted uranium, or DU -- itself an alleged toxin.

But scientists later learned that embedded tungsten alloy fragments can cause tumors. A 2007 memorandum from the Under Secretary of Defense advises that "in light of our present knowledge of the potential health risks associated with tungsten/nickel/cobalt alloys, please have your acquisition managers and munitions developers and researchers consider alternative materials in developmental munitions programs." The discovery that tungsten, by itself in the environment, is also hazardous may escalate things to a new level. Could it put tungsten on a par with DU?

Part of the problem is that so many types of weapon use tungsten:

* The GNU-44 Viper Strike missile, carried by armed drones, has a tungsten sleeve to produce antipersonnel shrapnel.
* The 130-round-per-second Phalanx anti-missile Gatling gun, deployed on U.S. and Royal Navy ships, originally used DU rounds. They were replaced with tungsten, for environmental reasons.
* 120mm anti-tank rounds, use tungsten as an alternative to DU in training. So do the 25mm anti-tank rounds, on board the M2/M3 Bradley fighting vehicle.
* Armor-pirecing .308 M993 rifle rounds.
* The 120mm M1028 anti-personnel round, fired by the Abrams tank. It's basically a giant shotgun shell loaded with 1100 tungsten balls, each 3/8th of an inch big.
* Dense Inert Metal Explosives, the "focused lethality" munition used by the U.S. and Israel. It contains micro-shrapnel made of tungsten powder.
* Some 70mm rockets fired by Apache helicopters release tungsten flechettes.

… and so on.

The British Army is already looking into the tungsten problem. A study of possible implications found that there was tungsten in the ground water of at least one UK tank firing range, and recommended that further studies be carried out.

Meanwhile, the U.S. Army seems to be taking a schizophrenic approach - stopping production of tungsten-based training ammo, while looking into using it as a DU-replacement in even more rounds.

Lead -- the classic ammo ingredient -- is firmly established. (Although some U.S. state laws make it illegal to use at firing ranges.) So is DU also appears rooted in place. But the trend towards more environmental awareness is a continuing one and would be unwise to assume that anything defined as a toxic health hazard is going to remain in the inventory indefinitely. This might exasperate those who accept that all weapons are dangerous... but it's not going to get them around the law.

We may end up in a situation where neither depleted uranium nor the only known alternative are politically acceptable. Heavy metal penetrators are an essential tool of modern armored warfare. What is needed is a new material entirely, and that is going to be quite a challenge from a physics and engineering point of view. And then it will need to be proven safe, which may take quite a while.
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/04/t ... ste-1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
G.C.Montgomery
Senior Member
Posts: 729
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:14 pm
Location: Somewhere between 200ft and 900ft (AGL)
Contact:

Re: Army stops making Tungsten munitions, causes cancer

Post by G.C.Montgomery »

The caveman in me asks...If we are getting the ingredients for bullets out of the ground and the bullets ultimately end up being shot right back into the ground, what difference does it make if we use lead, tungsten or bizmuth? I realize that's on over simplification but gee-whiz, guns and rockets and missles are dangerous. Getting shot with a DU round will kill you far sooner than cancer and it appears (according to all these scientific studies) that if you ever set foot outside your mother's womb, you'll get cancer or die of a heart attack.
When you take the time out of your day to beat someone, it has a much longer lasting effect on their demeanor than simply shooting or tazing them.

G. C. Montgomery, Jr.
User avatar
TheArmedFarmer
Senior Member
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:18 pm
Location: Grapevine

Re: Army stops making Tungsten munitions, causes cancer

Post by TheArmedFarmer »

I think the issue isn't about concern for those who get shot by the rounds, but for those who live in the area in which those rounds were fired.

Would you want depleted uranium rounds in your backyard, or in your water supply? This is where the objections are coming from, as far as I can see.
Life member: NRA, THSC, HSLDA.
bdickens
Senior Member
Posts: 2807
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:36 am
Location: Houston

Re: Army stops making Tungsten munitions, causes cancer

Post by bdickens »

Don't forget ,too, that everyone who has ever died has eaten food beforehand. Therefore, if you eat food, you will die.
Byron Dickens
PBratton
Senior Member
Posts: 1487
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:47 pm
Location: Sugar Land, Texas

Re: Army stops making Tungsten munitions, causes cancer

Post by PBratton »

I get a little confused when they start talking about health risks associated with weaponry designed to blow things into vapor...
http://www.GeeksFirearms.com NFA dealer.
$25 Transfers in the Sugar Land, Richmond/Rosenburg areas, every 25th transfer I process is free

Active Military, Veterans, Law Enforcement, Fire, EMS receive $15 transfers.

NRA Patron Member, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor, NRA Certified CRSO, Tx LTC Instructor
User avatar
DoubleJ
Senior Member
Posts: 2367
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:29 am
Location: Seattle, Washington

Re: Army stops making Tungsten munitions, causes cancer

Post by DoubleJ »

G.C.Montgomery wrote:The caveman in me asks...If we are getting the ingredients for bullets out of the ground and the bullets ultimately end up being shot right back into the ground, what difference does it make if we use lead, tungsten or bizmuth? I realize that's on over simplification but gee-whiz, guns and rockets and missles are dangerous. Getting shot with a DU round will kill you far sooner than cancer and it appears (according to all these scientific studies) that if you ever set foot outside your mother's womb, you'll get cancer or die of a heart attack.
If I was physically capable of agreeing any more, I would.

DU means it's depleted, as in not having any radioactivity, correct?

I would go so far as to say, that in my professional experience, and opinion, if you live long enough, you will get cancer of some sort. If heart disease, or some other cause doesn't get you first, you'll get cancer. you may survive it, but 100% of the population will get it, once again, provided you live long enough.
FWIW, IIRC, AFAIK, FTMP, IANAL. YMMV.
User avatar
flb_78
Senior Member
Posts: 1277
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:17 am
Location: Gravel Switch, KY
Contact:

Re: Army stops making Tungsten munitions, causes cancer

Post by flb_78 »

So if I get shot with a Tungsten bullet or hit with a Tungsten rocket, my biggest fear will be, "I may get cancer" ??????
http://www.AmarilloGunOwners.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
kalipsocs
Senior Member
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:43 am

Re: Army stops making Tungsten munitions, causes cancer

Post by kalipsocs »

flb_78 wrote:So if I get shot with a Tungsten bullet or hit with a Tungsten rocket, my biggest fear will be, "I may get cancer" ??????
the concern i believe is from the handling of and residual effects of such rounds i.e. getting into the water supply. same reason why (as I understand) while hunting ducks in a pond you are required to use steel shot instead of lead. could be wrong, I am no expert, but thats what i am thinking. i just think its funny that "oh we are going to make this eco friendly round" and lo and behold the ultimate irony... it is a festering carcinogen!
DU means it's depleted, as in not having any radioactivity, correct?
While not as radioactive as it once was, I am not sure radioactive material loses its "umph" until many many many...many...years. So once again it comes back to while they might be minimally irradiated, I know I wouldn't want to slurping the well water if one of theses had some rain water run over it and go into the water supply! I am with ya on that sooner or later you will have a serious health issue after a certain point no matter what, but I will say I am looking to speed up the process ;-)
User avatar
The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts: 26886
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: Army stops making Tungsten munitions, causes cancer

Post by The Annoyed Man »

DoubleJ wrote:DU means it's depleted, as in not having any radioactivity, correct?]
DU is a byproduct of enriching uranium-235 for reactor and weapons use
Depleted uranium (DU) is uranium primarily composed of the isotope uranium-238 (U-238). Natural uranium is about 99.27 percent U-238, 0.72 percent U-235, and 0.0055 percent U-234. U-235 is used for fission in nuclear reactors and nuclear weapons. Uranium is enriched in U-235 by separating the isotopes by mass. The byproduct of enrichment, called depleted uranium or DU, contains less than one third as much U-235 and U-234 as natural uranium. The external radiation dose from DU is about 60 percent of that from the same mass of natural uranium.[2] DU is also found in reprocessed spent nuclear reactor fuel, but that kind can be distinguished from DU produced as a byproduct of uranium enrichment by the presence of U-236.[3] In the past, DU has been called Q-metal, depletalloy, and D-38, but those names are no longer used.[citation needed]

DU is useful because of its very high density of 19.1 g/cm3. Civilian uses include counterweights in aircraft, radiation shielding in medical radiation therapy and industrial radiography equipment, and containers used to transport radioactive materials. Military uses include defensive armor plating and armor-piercing projectiles.

The use of DU in munitions is controversial because of numerous unanswered questions about potential long-term health effects. Normal functioning of the kidney, brain, liver, heart, and numerous other systems can be affected by uranium exposure, because in addition to being weakly radioactive, uranium is a toxic metal.[4] DU is less toxic than other heavy metals such as arsenic and mercury. It is weakly radioactive and remains so because of its long half-life. The aerosol produced during impact and combustion of depleted uranium munitions can potentially contaminate wide areas around the impact sites or can be inhaled by civilians and military personnel.[5] In a three week period of conflict in Iraq during 2003 it was estimated over 1000 tons of depleted uranium munitions were used mostly in cities.[6] The U.S. Department of Defense claims that no human cancer of any type has been seen as a result of exposure to either natural or depleted uranium.[7] Yet, studies using cultured cells and laboratory rodents continue to suggest the possibility of leukemogenic, genetic, reproductive, and neurological effects from chronic exposure.[8] In addition, the UK Pensions Appeal Tribunal Service in early 2004 attributed birth defect claims from a February 1991 Gulf War combat veteran to depleted uranium poisoning.[9][10] Also, a 2005 epidemiology review concluded: "In aggregate the human epidemiological evidence is consistent with increased risk of birth defects in offspring of persons exposed to DU."[11]
It seems like there is a significant risk involved in using DU. Yes, it is effective. Yes, it is less toxic than some other heavy metals. Even so, the half life of uranium-235 for instance is 704 million years. Long term exposure to low doses of radiation is almost as problematic as short term exposure to high doses. When radioactive waste - even relatively low level radioactive waste - is allowed to accumulate in the environment, it's hard to imagine that there isn't at least some reason for concern. As the above Wiki quote says, over 1,000 tons of DU munitions were expended in Iraq, mostly in cities.

I'm not saying the stuff shouldn't be used; but just as with land mines, the side that puts it down needs to pick it all up when they're done. If they don't, then the folks who have to live there after the armies have packed up and gone home have to live with the dangers of leaving it all there.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

#TINVOWOOT
txmatt
Senior Member
Posts: 232
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:27 am
Location: Bryan

Re: Army stops making Tungsten munitions, causes cancer

Post by txmatt »

Heavy metals tend to be toxic in general. No real surprise there.

DU is actually used as radiation shielding (as noted in the article posted by TAM). If you want to have some fun wander around a thrift store with a geiger counter and see what you find. Lots of radioactive stuff we are constantly exposed to. I'd be just as concerned with heavy metal in the water as radioactive heavy metal in the water.
User avatar
tfrazier
Senior Member
Posts: 657
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 8:02 pm
Location: 1308 Laguna Vista Way, Grapevine, Texas 76051
Contact:

Re: Army stops making Tungsten munitions, causes cancer

Post by tfrazier »

Let's see, where did I put that Geiger counter...
Glove box? Nope.
Desk drawers? Nope
Ah! Here it is, stuck in the couch cushions. :lol:

I subscribe to the 'more is less' theory. If we'd actually fight battles and wars instead of worrying about public policy, we could unload the correct amount of ordinance to defeat our enemies and create a lasting peace; then we wouldn't have to spread this toxic stuff out over decades and continents. It would all be concentrated in a few specific areas.

And nice little signs posted at the borders of each of those resulting "forbidden zones" would serve as warnings to folks not to attack the defenders of liberty.

The manufacturing process shouldn't be an issue...we have the technology to protect our workers from exposure, right?

If we continue to fight wars like a bunch of political nancys we are destined for the world of Mad Max. I've already converted my car for the future:
Image
User avatar
DoubleJ
Senior Member
Posts: 2367
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:29 am
Location: Seattle, Washington

Re: Army stops making Tungsten munitions, causes cancer

Post by DoubleJ »

tfrazier wrote:
If we continue to fight wars like a bunch of political nancys we are destined for the world of Mad Max. I've already converted my car for the future:
Image
Image
yeah, but what kinda gas mileage she get????
FWIW, IIRC, AFAIK, FTMP, IANAL. YMMV.
wheelgun1958
Senior Member
Posts: 1157
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:40 pm
Location: Flo, TX

Re: Army stops making Tungsten munitions, causes cancer

Post by wheelgun1958 »

Just nuke-em.

"Heh, Heh, Heh, what a mess!"

Duke Nukem

Image
Post Reply

Return to “General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion”