NIOSA Fiesta... I should have known better.

[Fangs]

So yesterday I let my friends convince me to go to the Night In Old San Antonio "Fiesta" thing. Due to quite a few headlines recently and my own experiences with SA at night, I opted to drive and carry, and not drink. The thought crossed my mind that it could be a 51% situation, but I quickly dismissed it, assuming the streets couldn't be posted and that I could just stay outside the bars along with a couple of under 21 friends. Anyway, after a long walk from parking way far away, I came up to the ticket booth only to see the dreaded 51% sign. I asked a nearby police officer if that was applicable, since we were outside on streets. He said yes. It cost me a trip back to the car.

I guess I should have asked beforehand, but was it a valid sign?

How does the 51% sign apply to knives? I never take a knife to bars. To be safe, I left my knife in the trunk as well, along with my two spare mags.

In their defense, there was a very large SAPD presence.

[dukesean]

How does the 51% sign apply to knives? I never take a knife to bars. To be safe, I left my knife in the trunk as well, along with my two spare mags.

I don't think 51% has any application towards knives. In fact, I usually carry my knife around everywhere, especially where I see 51% or 30.06 signs (of course, I avoid 30.06 establishments if at all possible)

[Oldgringo]

Fangs wrote:

NIOSA Fiesta... I should have known better.

[hirundo82]

Hopefully srothstein will show up soon to give us his input, but my impression from the penal code is that 51% is only applicable to buildings.

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

So carry is prohibited on the "premises," which sometimes causes confusion since there are different definitions of premises. For carry by a CHL holder the quoted definition from TPC Sec. 46.035 is the relevant definition, but for other sections of the Texas code, such as the Alcoholic Beverage Code, "premises" is the entire property of the licensed business.

As long as a knife is "legal" per Section 46.01, I am unaware of any restrictions on knife carry in the Texas Penal Code so you are good to carry one anywhere in the state--schools, bars, etc.

[pbwalker]

You couldn't pay me enough to go to ANY of those Fiesta events. I'm not a fan of crowds to begin with, and seeing the same things you are Fangs, I will never go. Too many hoodlums and riff raff to make it worth it.

[Oldgringo]

You couldn't pay me enough to go to ANY of those Fiesta events. I'm not a fan of crowds to begin with, and seeing the same things you are Fangs, I will never go. Too many hoodlums and riff raff to make it worth it.

[CWOOD]

I am not srothstein, nor do I play him on TV, however, let me give this a shot and he may want to clean up ofter me if I mess up too much. I DO try to pay attention to his comments.

San Antonio has a Fiesta Committee or some such private group which organizes and puts on the event. It is that group who hires the SAPD officers to secure the event...those you noticed in abundance this year.

I other posts, Steve has given an example of a bowling alley with a bar and how they often list the entire floorspace of the bowling alley on their license as premisis so that patrons can carry their drinks back to their lanes...which they could not leally do it the official premisis were only the bar portion of the place.

I believe the same is true for NIOSA. The Fiesta Committee can get a temporary license and designate the entire NIOSA grounds, including streets and all other areas beyond the ticket booth, as their premisis so that the revelers can walk around with their beverages. You will notice that patrons are not permitted to leave the NIOSA grounds with their alcoholic beverages....just like you cannot do so in a bar or other licensed premisis. I believe the TABC definition of premisis is different from the Penal Code definition.

I hope this makes sense...I also hope I didn't over step into Steves area too much.

[srothstein]

You hit the nail pretty much right on the head, CWOOD. In this case, the group heading NIOSA is the Conservation society. They primarily get thier money from two areas, the gate and the beer sales. The booths provide some rent but it is primarily to make the organizations that rent them money.

In the specific case of NIOSA, I would guess that the 51% sign is actually accurate as it represents their sales. The temporary license is for the whole grounds and is actually held by the Conservation Society.

And the problem with this one section of the law is the conflicting definitions of premises. I am not confident at all which definition would take hold in a case like a special event like NIOSA. The method of discovery of the gun would probably make the difference (a justified shooting would walk, a person carrying and dropping the gun accidentally would go to jail).

[jmorris]

I'd like to see the actual license to see if it's red. When we went to Folk Life festival it was posted 51% but from what I saw beer sales were nowhere near 51%.

And if you're going to carry a knife in SA:
Sec. 21-17. Certain knives prohibited generally; exceptions; penalty for violation.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to intentionally or knowingly carry on or about his person a knife with a blade less than five and one-half (5 1/2) inches in length, which knife is equipped with a lock mechanism so that upon opening, it becomes a fixed blade knife.
(b) The above prohibition set forth in subsection (a) shall not be applicable to a person carrying such a knife:
(1) In the actual discharge of his duties as a peace officer, a member of the armed forces or national guard, or a guard employed by a penal institution;
(2) On his own premises or premises under his control;
(3) Traveling;
(4) Engaged in lawful hunting, fishing or other lawful sporting activity; or
(5) Using such a knife in connection with a lawful occupation, during such utilization.

Since state law is *over* 5.5" I need to find a lockback that's exactly 5.5" long.

[gmckinl]

I'd like to see the actual license to see if it's red.

FYI, in case someone hasn't looked at them in the flesh, the license has the word "R-E-D" in the middle of the piece of paper. The paper itself is another color (I've seen green and buff colored paper, perhaps a blue but I won't swear to that one). I seem to remember a green-papered sign w/ the word "BLUE" on it at a local restaurant.

[SlowDave]

And if you're going to carry a knife in SA:
Sec. 21-17. Certain knives prohibited generally; exceptions; penalty for violation.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to intentionally or knowingly carry on or about his person a knife with a blade less than five and one-half (5 1/2) inches in length, which knife is equipped with a lock mechanism so that upon opening, it becomes a fixed blade knife.
(b) The above prohibition set forth in subsection (a) shall not be applicable to a person carrying such a knife:
(1) In the actual discharge of his duties as a peace officer, a member of the armed forces or national guard, or a guard employed by a penal institution;
(2) On his own premises or premises under his control;
(3) Traveling;
(4) Engaged in lawful hunting, fishing or other lawful sporting activity; or
(5) Using such a knife in connection with a lawful occupation, during such utilization.

Since state law is *over* 5.5" I need to find a lockback that's exactly 5.5" long.

Sheesh, where'd this come from? This is State Law, right, not San Antonio law? So, could an occupation of engineer justify a lockblade? I mean, sometimes I have to strip the insulation from a wire, or cut a piece of tape or something, and I wouldn't want my knife blade to flip closed on me during that.

5.5" blade... "Is that a legal lockblade in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?" Seriously, that's a whopper of a pocket knife. And why would you restrict people to only carrying a huge lockblade?

[KD5NRH]

Since state law is *over* 5.5" I need to find a lockback that's exactly 5.5" long.

The problem is defining "blade length." Some will see it as from the end of the handle to the tip, others as a straight line from the beginning of the sharpened portion to the tip, and still others as the length of the actual edge, following any curvature it may have.

[Liberty]

Since state law is *over* 5.5" I need to find a lockback that's exactly 5.5" long.

The problem is defining "blade length." Some will see it as from the end of the handle to the tip, others as a straight line from the beginning of the sharpened portion to the tip, and still others as the length of the actual edge, following any curvature it may have.

Once you walk down that path you have introduced a lot of reasonable doubt.
You can only charge for under or over not both at the same time.
The lawyers will always win these cases because they will be just a little richer even if they lose. Those who persist with the charges continue to get their pay checks So they win. The Jury gets to go home so they are winners. The one who is charged but be found not guilty, but they are poorer and have spent a lot of time and effort.

[SlowDave]

Has this law ever been enforced? Is it archaic and one of those "you can't walk your donkey across the street on Tuesday afternoon" kind of laws? I'm guessing that 10% of San Antonio residents are breaking this law on any given day. Comments from any of the LEO folks? Worth the trouble to try to get it removed?

[Fangs]

I wish someone had told me that NIOSA was Wurstfest, just in SA.

Everyone who knew I was going said they were jealous. Then once I got there I asked them what there was to do and all I got was "I've never been" or "eat, drink, walk around". Meh.

Oh well, all my drinking friends had fun, my minor friends were about as bored as I was.

The knife law has me curious too, carried my Gerber all day at the gun show today anyway though.\

EDIT: Dave, that's a SA-specific law, the "under 5.5" = illegal". The Texas state law is "over 5.5" = illegal"