Straw Purchase?

[lws380]

Hit the San Antonio gun show yesterday. While standing around on of the dealers tables, I wonder if the transaction that occured was a straw purchase.

Essentially two guys (both military) decide to get a handgun and tell the salesman they each want one. Salesmen ask if they are Texas residents. One guy is a Texas resident and the other is not and had ID from another state and both had military ID's. He told the salesman that he is stationed here. Salesman says he neds to see his id and orders that he is stationed here. Second guy ask about showing a pay and earnings statement instead of his orders. Salesman said he would look at it but not sure, as they usually need to see the orders. Second guy then says he did not have a copy of his pay statement on him either.

So first guy asks if he can buy 2 guns. Salesman says yes. So he whips out Tx license and picks out the two guns.

Was that a straw purchase? It seemed clear to me the second gun was for the second guy. If the second guy however, is later to be determined legally able to buy a gun, lets say he does have orders and could pass the background check. Then would that still be a straw purchase? It seems that the first guy is essentially lying if he said the gun purchase is for him. Does that misstatement (lie) create a straw purchase?

[Oldgringo]

Isn't there some provision that allows buying a "gift" for someone?

Steve and/or Excaliber will know. Keith probably knows too. Maybe everybody but me knows???

[seamusTX]

In my opinion, in the eyes of the law, that would have been a straw purchase.

Military personnel who are not residents of a state but are stationed there can legally buy handguns (unlike other non-residents); but according to the law they have to provide documentation.

In any case, from what you say, no harm was done. It's ethically different from buying a firearm for a convicted felon or passing it to gangsters in Chicago or Washington.

It could also be argued that the whole thing (18 USC 922) is unconstitutional, and violating the law in that way is no different from a man and woman of different races marrying, back when that was illegal. The American colonists violated British law in the 1770s, smuggling weapons and ammunition from the Netherlands, France, and the Spanish colonies.

P.S.: It is legal to buy a firearm as a gift or to resell it at any time, but it's a matter of intent. In this case, the buyer did not make the decision until he saw that it was necessary to get around a legal obstacle.

- Jim

[SlowDave]

P.S.: It is legal to buy a firearm as a gift or to resell it at any time, but it's a matter of intent. In this case, the buyer did not make the decision until he saw that it was necessary to get around a legal obstacle.

- Jim

I was told differently when I was at a gun store and was talking about how difficult it was to make this purchase, trying to think of what someone else would want in a gun (as a present). The clerk took me aside by myself and told me that buying a gun for someone else (in this case my dad) was a straw purchase and a felony and asked me again if I was buying this gun for myself or someone else. I got the hint and told him, "For myself."

Just went looking, and best I could see the applicable section is 46.06 and according to what's there, I don't think the OP's guy broke the law, and neither do I think it's illegal to buy a gun for someone else. The bar is pretty high to be guilty of a straw purchase, it seems. Basically, you have to transfer (give or sell) it to them knowing they're gonna use it illegally, or are under 18, or are within 5 years of being convicted of a felony, or they're drunk, or who is under a protective order. I'd cut and paste the pertinent section if I could. Anyone else have a comment on this? Am I missing something, perhaps another related section?

[Beiruty]

If it is me, I would buy the Firearm for myself and do and FFL transfer to anyone, even my real bro.

[lws380]

Found this cheesy reference on another forum. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/theater/toon4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After listening to this, it appears to me the transaction was a straw purchase. It was apparent to me that the the TX resident was going to buy the gun and give it to his buddy, and get reimbursed. I don't think he was going to drop $400-$500 for him just for fun, especially in light that they both stated they wanted to each buy a gun in the beginning.

This little ATF video also states that if there is any question, do not sell the gun! There seems to be enough questions in my mind.

Secondly, as well as guns are selling, why would a dealer do this to begin with. How much markup do they make in a $500 gun sale? If little old dumb me had questions about the transaction, shouldn't a salesman working for a dealer use a little more caution? How about, hey, I'll hold the weapon for you and you can get the correct documentation and we can complete this later today or tomorrow (still had Sunday left for the gun show). I want to help you get this gun, but not by you committing a felony!

As a side note, ammunition was sky high at the gun show.

[pbwalker]

Would someone buying a pistol on my behalf (to take advantage of the Military / LEO discount) constitute a straw purchase?

I'm prior service and apparently the discount doesn't extend to us. I had someone offer to buy it for me and I haven't given an answer yet...not too sure on the legalities.

[seamusTX]

I was told differently when I was at a gun store and was talking about how difficult it was to make this purchase, trying to think of what someone else would want in a gun (as a present). The clerk took me aside by myself and told me that buying a gun for someone else (in this case my dad) was a straw purchase and a felony and asked me again if I was buying this gun for myself or someone else. I got the hint and told him, "For myself."

This issue concerns federal law, not state law; and it is very complicated. Aside from not being a lawyer, I do not completely understand it.

The relevant law is 18 USC 922.

It does not explicitly prohibit straw purchases. It prohibits transferring a firearm to a prohibited person (felon, etc.) or a resident of another state.

However, it makes it an offense to make a false statement in connection with the purchases of a firearm from a licensed dealer.

The law does not specify what information the ATF can require to be collected from a buyer. So they put in question 12(a), which is, "Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form?"

That question refers to "important notice 1," which says,

...You are also the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for another party.

ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr.Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT the actual buyer ...

However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual buyer ...

If buying a firearm to give as a gift were illegal, a lot of us would be felons.

As usual, IANAL, etc.

- Jim

[lws380]

Would someone buying a pistol on my behalf (to take advantage of the Military / LEO discount) constitute a straw purchase?

I'm prior service and apparently the discount doesn't extend to us. I had someone offer to buy it for me and I haven't given an answer yet...not too sure on the legalities.

Maybe have them buy and then sell to you using FFL. That kinda negates some of the discount though.

[mr surveyor]

what about the issue of a Texas resident transferring a handgun to a non-Texas resident? Is that not a problem?

[seamusTX]

Sure is.

A person who is not licensed can receive a handgun only in his state of residence, except for military personnel.

- Jim

[mr surveyor]

Sure is.

A person who is not licensed can receive a handgun only in his state of residence, except for military personnel.

- Jim

even family gifts?

[AEA]

I think as long as you are the one filling out the 4473, you are the buyer of the gun no matter where the money comes from.

Your intent to resell or otherwise give it away has nothing to do with the actual purchase of the gun. Unless of course you mouth off and say that you are buying it for someone else, which would then raise a red flag with the FFL.

For example, what about all the guns we have bought and then later sold? No, we did not have any intent to sell them when we bought them, but after we acquire them we have every right to sell them.

I think that in order to be charged/convicted of a Straw Purchase, you would have to be selling or giving the gun to someone who is NOT legally entitled to own the weapon in Texas. In this case, the buyer knew the other guy, also knew his age and where he lived. Also knew that he was legal to purchase a gun in Texas (as stationed at the base) but could not prove it to the FFL at the time.

This is just my opinion.

[seamusTX]

I think that in order to be charged/convicted of a Straw Purchase, you would have to be selling or giving the gun to someone who is NOT legally entitled to own the weapon in Texas.

On a practical level, that is the kind of transaction that los federales are looking for.

You can get an idea of how extensive investigations of straw purchases are from this Google query: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q ... earch=.gov" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There was a series of episodes in Richmond, Virginia, in 2004-5, where BATFE personnel and state police investigated possible straw purchases at gun shows. In the opinion of some, they were a bit heavy-handed. These incidents led to congressional hearings a couple of years later: http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/ju ... 053_0f.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This gets interesting around page 11. Out of eight gun shows in total

ATF reports that 206 participants were stopped and interviewed while it confiscated firearms from another 50 participants. Although most of the firearms were ultimately returned, the purchasers were notified via official letter from ATF that a person may have knowingly made a false statement to a firearms dealer, a crime which is punishable by imprisonment for up to 5 years, and were ordered to appear at a local ATF office to discuss their transactions.

- Jim

[Purplehood]

My gut reaction is that this stepped over the line. I would not have done it. Personal preference.