defending your dog

[TrueFlog]

Here's a topic I haven't seen yet - If you are out walking your dog (as I often do in the neighborhood), and you are confronted by an agressive dog on the street, does your CHL give you the right to defend your dog as you would a member of your family? I live within the city limits of the city of Arlington, TX, but also own property outside the city limits where i also occasionally walk her; anyone have any insights about the particular rules for this??

No.

Your CHL does not give you any rights whatsoever. It merely protects you from being prosecuted for exercising your inherent, God-given right to bear arms for self-defense. Setting that aside, the CHL has nothing to do with whether it's legal to defend yourself, your dog, etc. A guy without a license has the same legal rights and obligations with respect to self-defense as someone with a CHL, he just doesn't have access to the same tools. With that said, I agree that PC 9.41 and 9.42 authorize the use of deadly force if necessary (duty to retreat?) to protect the dog, provided that all other conditions are met.

[txmatt]

My reading of the code leads me to believe that the simple "a dog is property and can be defended as such" is not correct.

Sec. 822.013. DOGS OR COYOTES THAT ATTACK ANIMALS. (a) A dog or coyote that is attacking, is about to attack, or has recently attacked livestock, domestic animals, or fowls may be killed by:

(1) any person witnessing the attack; or

(2) the attacked animal's owner or a person acting on behalf of the owner if the owner or person has knowledge of the attack.

(b) A person who kills a dog or coyote as provided by this section is not liable for damages to the owner, keeper, or person in control of the dog or coyote.

(c) A person who discovers on the person's property a dog or coyote known or suspected of having killed livestock, domestic animals, or fowls may detain or impound the dog or coyote and return it to its owner or deliver the dog or coyote to the local animal control authority. The owner of the dog or coyote is liable for all costs incurred in the capture and care of the dog or coyote and all damage done by the dog or coyote.

(d) The owner, keeper, or person in control of a dog or coyote that is known to have attacked livestock, domestic animals, or fowls shall control the dog or coyote in a manner approved by the local animal control authority.

(e) A person is not required to acquire a hunting license under Section 42.002, Parks and Wildlife Code, to kill a dog or coyote under this section.

Thus if your dog is being attacked by another dog or is about to be attacked, you may kill the dog. If you are found to be not justified then you could be facing a state jail felony under Sec. 42.092. (Cruelty to non-livestock animals)

IANAL, and I would only kill a dog to protect another animal if it were really the only option, and probably even then only if it were my animal being attacked

[bryang]

When out walking my dog I would defend her from an attack of a larger dog. As far as I am concerned she is my family and if attack, "we" are attacked, therefore, I will do what ever is necessary to neutralize the situation. I would avoid shooting the dog if at all possible.

-geo

[Sheree]

You could try carrying alternatives to a gun for protecting your dog. A cattle prod has a fairly long handle and you could likely change a dog's mind about attacking. Dogs typically really don't care for the electric zap sound either. Also a good can of mace is a great deterrent. The big problem with shooting at a dog who is attacking is it would have to be a certain distance from you to avoid endangering your own dog. If is is not actually on your dog, well, any witnesses may firmly believe you were shooting a dog without a reason, if it hadn't actually bitten you or your dog yet. If you are shooting a dog who is running at you, wouldn't have much time to account for the trajectory of all the bullets if it is moving fast. I just think a gun would be a 1st choice that could cause you a problem when there are other choices that might protect you, your dog, and your legal expenses. if the prod or mace fails, you can at least say you tried a non-lethal solution first.

[KD5NRH]

Yep.. In Texas animals are considered property, so legally you cannot justify using force (IANAL), especially deadly force against another person for that or another dog.

A person damaging your property would be committing criminal mischief. During the night, therefore, you would be justified in using force, including deadly force, to prevent or stop the attack. Frankly, I'd expect that to be much easier to defend in court than most other uses of force to stop criminal mischief.

Of course, someone attacking your dog while you're walking it on a short leash could be considered a threat to you as well. How well that might stand up in court depends mostly on your lawyer.

If it's being attacked by another dog, then HSC 822.013 would apply.

[frazzled]

Of course, someone attacking your dog while you're walking it on a short leash could be considered a threat to you as well.

Exactly. Getting out of my car yesterday was reminded of one of my reasons for a chl. A chap was walking by with THREE rottweilers.

[Txemtp69]

I think more appropriately would be you are defending yourself as the dog is coming at you as well, that would be my perspective on the matter.

[texas1234]

I have been in this situation while carrying in my subdivision without a CHL. I had a pit bull start to aggressively move towards me and my five year old within 20 feet. It was a male pit around 80lbs. I pulled my pistol, pointed it at the dog, obviously there was no fear in my body. The dog hightailed it.

I cant say that will happen everytime with an aggressive dog, but from what I experienced I do know is that the dog sensed zero fear and ran off.

I didnt have to shoot the dog, I didnt have to fire in the city limits, I didnt get in trouble, but its the main reason why I applied for my CHL. Even if I didnt shoot having the pistol potentially saved a very intense moment.

I have no idea if the dog was scared of the gun or my demeanor showed no fear regardless me nor my child was injured that day.

By the way I still thinks its absurd in this country that I have to apply for a license to carry a handgun. It goes agains every grain of the right to bear arms. I guess thats another thread.

[RedRaider]

I didnt have to shoot the dog, I didnt have to fire in the city limits, I didnt get in trouble, but its the main reason why I applied for my CHL. Even if I didnt shoot having the pistol potentially saved a very intense moment.

I totally understand the need to protect yourself and your kid from a threatening dog, and it sounds like it worked out this time without needing to pull the trigger. I really hope a gun is not your first option in regards to a threatening dog, you may want to consider having other options available before use of a gun.........pepper spay and a sturdy walking club or cane come to mind. Steel toe boots are another I'd consider when out and about knowing there are loose dogs...........

Shooting a dog I imagine would be very difficult, especially since movement will most likely be involved by you and the dog, and this will create a changing background to where your misses would go.............pretty scary if you're in a residential setting.

[frazzled]

I would agree with most canines. I would not agree concerning pit bulls, and to a lesser extent Rottweilers. If they attack, unless you're a burly guy, they won't notice a stick or boot. A truly ticked off pit bull will ignore pepper spray. I'm not trying to brag in some manner, it makes me sad actually.

OT but people who fight dogs should be staked to a red ant nest.

[RedRaider]

I would agree with most canines. I would not agree concerning pit bulls, and to a lesser extent Rottweilers. If they attack, unless you're a burly guy, they won't notice a stick or boot. A truly ticked off pit bull will ignore pepper spray.

I guess my point was "to have options".........the poster I was responding to made it a point to say that was the primary reason he is getting CHL (to defend himself against a dog). I was merely giving advice that it is better to have options beyond a gun.

BTW, the steel toe boot option comes from my personal experience........a rottweiller that weighed about 100+ pounds pounced on my 30lb dog a fews years ago, I kicked him square in the nose with my steel toe work boots as this was my only means of defending my dog............and it definenlty got his attention and he went on his merry way. Would it work out like that everytime, maybe not, but it is an option I'd take before spraying bullets at a dog in residentail neighborhood setting.........especially if I am carrying illegally w/o CHL like the poster admitted to.

[RedRaider]

OT but people who fight dogs should be staked to a red ant nest.

and would have no problem providing the stake or the red ant nest!

[caldvn]

[
I totally understand the need to protect yourself and your kid from a threatening dog, and it sounds like it worked out this time without needing to pull the trigger. I really hope a gun is not your first option in regards to a threatening dog, you may want to consider having other options available before use of a gun.........pepper spay and a sturdy walking club or cane come to mind. Steel toe boots are another I'd consider when out and about knowing there are loose dogs...........

I don't feel the need to carry every single defensive weapon to justify the protection of my daugher in a case where a dog is making an aggressive stance/posture/movement/motion/etc... If I feel my daughter will be harmed, I'm not going to run through a list of of stick whacking, spraying, punching, kicking, etc... options with a dog running straight at us. Granted, depending on the dog, I will try to avoid the situation at best, however those options go out the door for every step the "aggressive" dog takes towards us. To heck with the owner if their pet isn't leashed, especially if they own dog breeds with a history.

[joe817]

When I was a kid of 15 or so, we lived out in the country about 25 mi. from Wichita Falls. People would dump off unwanted dogs on a dirt road that ran along side of our house on occasion.

A stray wandered into our barn and when I discovered it, it was rabid and foaming at the mouth. I ran to the house and told Dad and he said "it's rabid son...you have no choice..you have to shoot it. It could infect our livestock"(we raised registered quarter horses). I got my pistol(1911) and destroyed it, then buried it out in a field.

It was the 2nd hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life. I think I cried over it(alone). I pray I never have to do it again, but if the occasion arises, I will do so with no hesitation. It's not fun, or funny, or enjoyable.

[frazzled]

I guess my point was "to have options".........the poster I was responding to made it a point to say that was the primary reason he is getting CHL (to defend himself against a dog). I was merely giving advice that it is better to have options beyond a gun.

BTW, the steel toe boot option comes from my personal experience........a rottweiller that weighed about 100+ pounds pounced on my 30lb dog a fews years ago, I kicked him square in the nose with my steel toe work boots as this was my only means of defending my dog............and it definenlty got his attention and he went on his merry way. Would it work out like that everytime, maybe not, but it is an option I'd take before spraying bullets at a dog in residentail neighborhood setting.........especially if I am carrying illegally w/o CHL like the poster admitted to.

I understand. I've had to drop kick more than one dog through the field goal of life (yea Daddism) but have nevered worried about any dog other than the aforementioned pit bulls/rottweilers. if they are big enough to avoid "drop kick" status they are big enough to hurt me or a kid badly. Its the one that doesn't stop that I am worried about. Everything else gets the DAD COMMAND VOICE or the kick if needed.