LCP or Kel Tec PF9

[beads]

I've been flip flopping each week on these two. Likethe LCP for concealablity but the PF9 is lot easier to find at stores now and 9mm. The PF9 is cheaper and can get a good holster for the same as a lcp. What's everyone thoughts? Pros & cons

[AggieC05]

The PF9 is easy to conceal with how thin it is. You can actually find ammunition for it.. well sort of.. and when you do its actually affordable to shoot. Then again I am a Kel-Tec enthusiast.

[AggieC05]

and also why go with the LCP when once again it is just a clone of the Kel-Tec P3AT ....

[nuparadigm]

Get the PF-9. I used to have one and I loved it ... until my wife discovered it. Now, it's her's.

[pedalman]

Having recently purchased a KT P11, I personally would go with the PF9.

I know that the 9mm Kurz in your hand is better than the 44 Mag you left at home. But for an autoloader, my absolute bottom-line cartridge is 9mm Luger.

[Liberty]

Having recently purchased a KT P11, I personally would go with the PF9.

I know that the 9mm Kurz in your hand is better than the 44 Mag you left at home. But for an autoloader, my absolute bottom-line cartridge is 9mm Luger.

but a .22 with ammo is better than a .380 you can't get ammo for.

[pedalman]

Well played, my good man.

[A-R]

I realize this may provoke criticism from the Kel-Tec crowd, but I didn't even think of buying a pistol along the lines of a P3AT until Ruger put their name and a slide stop on it and called it the LCP. Not trying to bad-mouth Kel-Tec, per se, but I had just come off a horrible experience with another maker (Kahr) with a shorter history than the Rugers and S&Ws of the gun world, and I just didn't feel like being the guinea pig for another newer company.

Personally, I'm still not 100% convinced of the Kel-Tec name nor their less-expensive price points in the market. But this does not mean they are a bad company or make bad products. I just take a bit longer to be convinced of such things as the overall reliablity of a brand name. I know plenty of people who love their Kel Tecs, and obviously the pharmacist in Oklahoma City was able to drop a bad guy with one well-placed shot from a pocket Kel Tec. So their reputation is improving rapidly. But on certain things - like a product intended to save my life when I need it most - name recognition and a long history of reliabilty trump all other concerns for me, including price and ammo availability.

All that being said, 25 years ago Glock was considered an "unknown" quantity and the S&W, Ruger, and Colt crowds didn't want anything to do with it (some still don't). I now consider Glock to be the most reliable semi-auto pistol in the world. But that reputation takes time.

Anyway, all this rambling has a point: It's great to ask advice from everyone on the board and elsewhere, and strongly consider the recommendations of others, but ultimately you need to buy what is best for you for the reasons that make it best for you.

At the time, I bought an LCP because the Ruger name gave me the added comfort of a respected name in the industry that worked a long time to earn its reputation. Even after the recall - which went smoothly for me - I am still happy with my LCP. But YMMV.

Let us know what you decide and how you like your new gun. The more good reviews I read on boards like this and not in gun magazines or fanboy-type forums devoted to one brand, the better that brand's reputation is in my mind.

Again, don't mean any of this to disparage Kel-Tec directly, though I realize it will probably provoke a few responses regardless.

[AggieC05]

I realize this may provoke criticism from the Kel-Tec crowd, but I didn't even think of buying a pistol along the lines of a P3AT until Ruger put their name and a slide stop on it and called it the LCP. Not trying to bad-mouth Kel-Tec, per se, but I had just come off a horrible experience with another maker (Kahr) with a shorter history than the Rugers and S&Ws of the gun world, and I just didn't feel like being the guinea pig for another newer company.

Ruger, Kimber, S&W, Kel-Tec, all have their issues which is why I believe whatever you choose to carry you have shot enough at the range to know that it will go bang each time. You can read responses about every major maker having issues with their guns as you pointed out the LCP recall. Kel-Tec stands behind its weapons with an impeccable warranty and the beautiful part are they are simple to operate and repair if there ever was an issue. I myself in this economy will take the price break on a Kel-Tec and save my money for ammo and holsters, and range time.

[beads]

I was sold on the LCP and brand name helped but while researching heard lot of good things about Kel Tec. Some horror stories by same with the LCP. For the Glock comment I love my G19 but looking for a pocket pistal and easy of carry, will check out the G26 but larger of course. Hitting a shop tomorrow to check out the PF9 and see how it feels in my hands before any decisions. Still have 2wks till fathers day! LOL

[A-R]

I realize this may provoke criticism from the Kel-Tec crowd, but I didn't even think of buying a pistol along the lines of a P3AT until Ruger put their name and a slide stop on it and called it the LCP. Not trying to bad-mouth Kel-Tec, per se, but I had just come off a horrible experience with another maker (Kahr) with a shorter history than the Rugers and S&Ws of the gun world, and I just didn't feel like being the guinea pig for another newer company.

Ruger, Kimber, S&W, Kel-Tec, all have their issues which is why I believe whatever you choose to carry you have shot enough at the range to know that it will go bang each time.

Absolutely agree about taking any individual weapon to range and ensuring it works right every time you pull the trigger with each type of ammo who plan to use. And this is exactly what I did with my Kahr, even carried it for more than a year as my primary weapon. Then one day it just starts having problems. Same ammo, same techniques etc. It just wore out, IMHO. And we're not talking after thousands of rounds either (it was a small carry gun, not a range queen). So even following the very good advice of ensuring each weapon functions can still leave open the possibility of problems with any brand.

In no way do I disparage anyone who carries a Kel Tec (or even a Kahr, for that matter). It's just a personal comfort level for me based on many different factors, including the age of the company and the price they charge for their products. Kahr is actually not even a good comparison to Kel Tec because Kahr charges an arm and a leg too much for their products, IMHO. But my gut tells me the problem with my Kahr was substandard polymer (it was a PM-40) combined with a design that could not handle such material deficiencies with a snappy cartridge like .40 cal. So I started thinking long and hard about a company's history, their design techniques and the quality (price) of their materials. Kel Tec obviously has to save money somewhere to offer their products at the prices they do. By the same token, Ruger is often a lower price point than S&W, which is often lower than Sig or H&K or Colt or Kimber etc.

Rightly or wrongly, I started making a pecking order of handgun companies based on my own personal feelings about their reliabilty. I'm happy to share it; realizing it will be picked apart, but hoping it makes for some interesting debate (mods: if I am "stealing" the topic with this, please let me know and I"ll move it).

My top tier based on my own personal "never failed" experience
Glock - 10 years tens of thousands of rounds. only minor misfeeds came with Blazer aluminum case ammo. no other problems. ever.
S&W revolvers - 2 years personal use never a single problem. countless other rave reviews from close friends and anonymous forum posters.
Colt - owned a Mustang for a few years and never had a single problem - other - obviously - rave reviews from multiple sources on the Colt brand

The rest ... completely subjective and based on rental use, friends, strangers etc. Just my personal pecking order, some are ranked lower than they may deserve simply because I have little data on them.

Tier 1:
H&K
Sig Sauer
Beretta
Browning

Tier 2:
Walther
S&W semi-autos
Kimber
Springfield

Tier 3:
Taurus
Ruger
Bersa
Charter Arms revolvers
CZ-USA
FNH-USA

Tier 4:
Kel Tec
Rossi
Kahr
High Standard
North American
Auto Ordinance
Para Ordinance
Magnum Research

Bottom tier (irrelevant, would never buy anything from this level of "Saturday Night Specials")
Jennings
Bryco
others? can't even remember all the names of these pawn shop guns

[Skiprr]

In no way do I disparage anyone who carries a Kel Tec (or even a Kahr, for that matter). It's just a personal comfort level for me based on many different factors, including the age of the company and the price they charge for their products.

I agree. I have a P3AT that I won't carry, sell, or even give away because I have about 1% confidence that it will go "bang" on any given round. I'm sure it is just this particular lemon that I got stuck with, but it is what it is. The gun went back to Kel-Tec twice in the first several months of ownership; they repaired and replaced parts each time and sent it back. It reliably fired anywhere from four to 12 rounds after it came back; but that was it. I replaced the firing pin and firing pin spring myself two different times, to the same effect. Since FedEx requires you ship firearms overnight only, I'm out about $70 shipping on top of the purchase price of the gun. I don't think it's had more than 60 rounds total down the pipe in its two-year existence. Kel-Tec stood by the warranty, but declined to replace the entire pistol, and I'm not spending any more on shipping. So out of the couple of dozen handguns I own, this is the only one I consider nothing but a paperweight.

Had it proved to fire reliably, I would probably be carrying it rather than my .32 Seecamp as a BUG. The P3AT was surprisingly accurate for me (not like a larger gun, of course, but at modest distances it was plenty accurate), and unlike some others I didn't find it all that uncomfortable to shoot. Never had any stoppage other than failure-to-fire.

[mr.72]

this is exactly what I did with my Kahr, even carried it for more than a year as my primary weapon. Then one day it just starts having problems. Same ammo, same techniques etc. It just wore out, IMHO. And we're not talking after thousands of rounds either (it was a small carry gun, not a range queen).

I know we have been down this road on a different topic but I really do feel like you are unfairly disparaging the Kahr product line on the whole based on your experience. That's fair enough for you, but seriously there is no way to fairly compare the quality of a Kahr pistol with a Kel-Tec or a Ruger LCP. I am not disparaging the Kel-Tec or Ruger brand names in this case either. They are just lower-priced guns with lower quality standards (not necessarily lower reliability standards). This quality includes not only reliability and durability but also refinement and finish quality, ergonomics, material quality, etc. Certainly a Kahr pistol is comparable in quality in every way to a Glock, H&K or Sig Sauer, and superior to your typical S&W semi-auto (hey I own a Ruger LCP, a Kahr, and a S&W semi). Likewise Kahrs are priced in line with Glocks, H&K and Sig, and if they really were only comparable in quality or reliability to sub-$300 guns like Kel-Tec; simple market observation confirms it. No way would Kahr continue to sell P9s for 2x the price of PF9s if they were not recognizably superior products. Now maybe the difference does not interest you or does not fit with your personal value scale (or mine). But they sell these guns as fast as they can make them and contrary to what you might expect, most of them do not wind up disappointing their owners as yours did.

I am not going to make this a Kel-Tec vs. Ruger vs. Kahr debate because frankly that's an unfair comparison. Kahrs cost 2x as much as the comparable Ruger or Kel-Tec, except for the CW9 which is just a little more than the comparable Kel-Tec. I own a Ruger LCP and a Kahr, and the Kahr is currently back at the co. getting a warranty repair, so I am not some kind of fanboy. For every person like you who had a problem with a Kahr, there is at least one other who has fired 10K+ rounds through one without a single hitch. I would guess 99.9% of Kahr owners never have a single problem once past the 200rd breakin period.

FWIW did you ever get to the bottom of what was _really_ wrong with your Kahr? It certainly didn't just wear out, and if it did, then it certainly is defective and a PM40 has a lifetime warranty IIRC. My suspicion is that you maybe were shooting Federal ammo and stripped the plating off of the primers, flakes of which made it into the striker channel and gummed up the works. Or perhaps the striker got a little bent or was misaligned. You'd probably have to shoot 30K+ rounds to wear one out. I have never heard of one being worn out. But IMHO since Kahr originally developed that pistol design for 9mm I would expect their 9mms to be their most reliable guns. Do you still have the gun? I am also in Cedar Park. I know how to detail strip the upper. I would like to see it.

[A-R]

this is exactly what I did with my Kahr, even carried it for more than a year as my primary weapon. Then one day it just starts having problems. Same ammo, same techniques etc. It just wore out, IMHO. And we're not talking after thousands of rounds either (it was a small carry gun, not a range queen).

Certainly a Kahr pistol is comparable in quality in every way to a Glock, H&K or Sig Sauer, and superior to your typical S&W semi-auto (hey I own a Ruger LCP, a Kahr, and a S&W semi). Likewise Kahrs are priced in line with Glocks, H&K and Sig,

...

FWIW did you ever get to the bottom of what was _really_ wrong with your Kahr? It certainly didn't just wear out, and if it did, then it certainly is defective and a PM40 has a lifetime warranty IIRC. My suspicion is that you maybe were shooting Federal ammo and stripped the plating off of the primers, flakes of which made it into the striker channel and gummed up the works. Or perhaps the striker got a little bent or was misaligned. You'd probably have to shoot 30K+ rounds to wear one out. I have never heard of one being worn out. But IMHO since Kahr originally developed that pistol design for 9mm I would expect their 9mms to be their most reliable guns. Do you still have the gun? I am also in Cedar Park. I know how to detail strip the upper. I would like to see it.

Mr. 72, I will have to respectfully, but strongly, disagree with you that Kahr is comparable in any way to Glock, HK, or Sig. These guns sell like hotcakes because they fill a niche in the market for a single-stack weapon that is much thinner than a Glock or similar HK, Sig, Springfield, or S&W. But the quality and especially the refinement and finish quality are not even close. The triggers are nasty, the slide stops and other mechanisms are rough and unrefined, and I even remember the barrel block and slide lacking a top-notch fit and finish. This is not to say these are "bad" guns, just that they in no way IMHO compare to Glock/HK/Sig.

And I completely agree that my bad situation with Kahr was mine alone (and attempted to state this in my previous post). Had it not been for my bad personal experience, a Kahr would easily rank in my "tier 3" with Ruger & Taurus - though Kahr's higher price still turns me off. If the fit and finish and triggers were better, I'd even put them in Tier 2 if they had longer history and impeccable reliability record. But I am certainly not the ONLY person who's had severe trouble with Kahr. I've read plenty of other problems in other boards and talked with plenty of people at ranges and even gun salesman who recommend to me and others less expensive but more reliable pistols than Kahr. I don't try to tell people not to buy Kahr. I only tell them my experience. And I see no problem with my one bad experience turning me off an entire brand - this is what reliability and quality control are all about. Make one lemon and you're sure to lose that customer. Make more than one, and you'll lose a lot more customers.

As for the specific problems with my specific PM40, the problems for which I returned it to Kahr for warranty service were multiple & regular fail to feed and fail to eject. By the time I returned it, it would not go through a single 6-round mag without a stoppage. And these were not easy to clear stoppages either - it was wedging brass or full cartridges tight between the slide and barrel block. A few such stoppages required tools and help of range personnel to free up. In self-defense terms, I would classify these as catastrophic failures that could've got me killed if they'd happened in a self-defense situation. I even blamed my self for a while after being told by countless Kahr fans that I must be limp wristing the gun. But my techniques did not vary from when the gun was working and I even let others try it at the range and they had same results.

After talking with some other disgruntled Kahr owners, I begain to believe a swelling or other deformation of the polymer frame itself - causing the slide to catch on the polymer frame rails - could have been causing the multiple fail to feed and fail to eject problems. If you look closely there is a distinct difference between the design of a Glock and a Kahr in that Glock implants those little metal slide rails into their polymer frames whereas the Kahr PM guns run the slide directly onto formed polymer rails. Also upon closer inspection, the quality of the polymer itself did not appear - to my naked untrained eyes - as good on Kahr as my Glock. Now, the Kel Tecs and LCPs are built in much the same way - slide sits directly on polymer frame - but these little guns are firing .380 ammo or at most 9mm - not .40 cal. - so maybe that makes a difference?

By the time I sent in my Kahr for repair, I'd already lost all trust in the firearm, and went out and bought my S&W J-frame as replacement before even sending the gun back. I no longer have the repair sheet from Kahr, but I remember something about some springs they replaced? Again, this was not an "old" or "abused" gun, so even replacing springs at this age was a stretch. And that seemed to reduce, but not completely fix, the problems. Rather than arguing with Kahr service and demanding a replacement polymer frame (or even a trade for an MK40) I traded the gun for a shotgun and lost about half the value in the trade - letting the other party know the gun had been to Kahr for repairs and still wasn't quite right which is why I wanted to dump it.

Anyway, I have thought seriously about if I was going to try another Kahr it would likely be a 9mm steel frame gun like the MK9 - in fact I almost traded my PM40 for a used MK9, but was just too upset with the whole Kahr experience at the time to do so. I honestly see no point in the larger Kahrs for me (even though they are probably much more reliable) because as I stated earlier, I don't like their triggers or overall fit and finish as well as Glock and can get full-size Glocks for same or less money. So the little Kahrs would be my only interest - and was my only interest when I bought my PM40. But after the experience - and seeing how still only Kahr and Kel Tec (and Walther PPS) seem to make 9mm/.40 cal weapons in this size range (and Glock continues to refuse to do so) I wonder if the size of the gun and the quality go hand in hand? I have been very pleasantly surprised by the quality, accuracy, and reliability of my LCP - but it would not surprise me one bit if it one day started having problems. You're really asking a lot to put that much firepower into such small little packages.

[mr.72]

If you look closely there is a distinct difference between the design of a Glock and a Kahr in that Glock implants those little metal slide rails into their polymer frames whereas the Kahr PM guns run the slide directly onto formed polymer rails.

This is a myth:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=765313" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Certainly my gun has stainless frame rail inserts.

I haven't inspected the LCP.

I seem to recall some kind of consistent issue that Kahr PM40s have that other Kahr pistols do not, but I can't recall and it's real fuzzy. Maybe your gun was one of these. BTW I love the trigger on my Kahr. It blows away my Smith & Wesson and is worlds better than the Taurus I had or my LCP. No contest. I prefer it over the funny-feeling Glock triggers too. But triggers are pretty personalized.