School or not?

[jamullinstx]

I've read the many threads on whether specific premises qualify as schools. Usually these focus on churches also offering day care or classes, or home school associations meeting in private homes or leased properties. I realize that "school" remains undefined in the TPC, but I am seeking the collective wisdom of this board on something that has come to my mind. Would a private "gymnastics" academy offering gymnastics classes to school-age children qualify as a school under the relevant TPC sections for concealed carry?

[dicion]

In my opinion, no.
It's a private business, similar to say, Subway.
Can you not carry at Subway because they 'teach' their new employees how to make a sandwitch?

If *I* had to legally define a school, *I* would write the definition up along the lines of:

"A Primary or secondary education facility that a) receives money from government tax collection as such, and b) employs certified teaching staff, and c) in which the majority of students spend over 20 hours a week attending"

I know that this exempts private schools, and personally, I believe that private schools should not fall under the government definition of 'school', since it is, for all intents and purposes, private property.
A Private school, to me, is no different then myself hiring a certified teacher to Teach a child in my home. Only difference is a matter of scale.

But thats just me

[Keith B]

Unless held in a school grounds or sponsored by the school, then no. The other prohibition wold be if they are licensed as a child care facility. If they don't meet the above, then no.

Disclaimer: IANAL

[jamullinstx]

Keith B, that is one of the best examples of circular reasoning I've seen in some time.

Q: Is it a school?
A: Only if it is a school.

Since the TPC doesn't define a school, but does explicitly include "private schools", while not defining those either, the question is, "Does a private enterprise that calls itself an "Academy" and teaches school age children non-academic subjects qualify as a school, in the collective opinion of the board.

I vote, "No", but am not wishing to be a test case.

[TxFig]

Bump because I would like to see further discussion on this question...

[austin-tatious]

Bump because I would like to see further discussion on this question...

Seems to me a school HAS to include teaching academics (readin', writin', and 'rithmatic), not skills like karate or dance only.

[4t5]

The Houston Museum of Natural Science has some sort of "no guns" blurb at the entrance. I am used to looking for 30.06 signs, and this wasn't one. It looked to be claiming that it is posted because it is a school. I think that this is not correct, but would like other opinions.

[Keith B]

Keith B, that is one of the best examples of circular reasoning I've seen in some time.

Q: Is it a school?
A: Only if it is a school.

Since the TPC doesn't define a school, but does explicitly include "private schools", while not defining those either, the question is, "Does a private enterprise that calls itself an "Academy" and teaches school age children non-academic subjects qualify as a school, in the collective opinion of the board.

I vote, "No", but am not wishing to be a test case.

That is not circular. The name Academy does not in itself mean anything (I carry at Academy Sports all the time. )

Let me first repeat, I Am Not A Lawyer. However, I feel confident in stating that if they are not accredited under the Texas Education Agency or the Texas Private School Accreditation Commission, then they are NOT a school (excluding colleges.) The TEA lists private and charter schools here and the TPSAC lists private schools here

If they don't exist in either of those lists and are not a college, then IMO they are not a school in the definition of prohibiting carry. I repeat, IANAL.

[KFP]

Keith B, that is one of the best examples of circular reasoning I've seen in some time.

Q: Is it a school?
A: Only if it is a school.

Since the TPC doesn't define a school, but does explicitly include "private schools", while not defining those either, the question is, "Does a private enterprise that calls itself an "Academy" and teaches school age children non-academic subjects qualify as a school, in the collective opinion of the board.

I vote, "No", but am not wishing to be a test case.

That is not circular. The name Academy does not in itself mean anything (I carry at Academy Sports all the time. )

Let me first repeat, I Am Not A Lawyer. However, I feel confident in stating that if they are not accredited under the Texas Education Agency or the Texas Private School Accreditation Commission, then they are NOT a school (excluding colleges.) The TEA lists private and charter schools here and the TPSAC lists private schools here

If they don't exist in either of those lists and are not a college, then IMO they are not a school in the definition of prohibiting carry. I repeat, IANAL.

[TxFig]

Bump because I would like to see further discussion on this question...

Seems to me a school HAS to include teaching academics (readin', writin', and 'rithmatic), not skills like karate or dance only.

I'm going to keep pushing this issue...

Let's say my homeschool group get's someone to donate the $8mil we need to build our own facility . The 2 main uses of the facility are:
(1) athletics - we already have our own homeschool teams (basketball, volleyball, etc), but we often have a VERY hard time finding a place for practices & games. Currently we often use a gym at a church - but those are not always available.

(2) A location for co-ops to meet. Homeschool co-ops can take many forms & serve different purposes. ONE of the things the co-op my wife used to belong to was so that 5-6 moms could get together and do ACADEMICS (your point above) as a group. For example, if one mom knew Spanish, she would teach Spanish to all of the kids; another mom might teach a science class; etc. Fwiw, about 50% of the MOMS in that co-op were CHL holders (and the other 50% were certainly not anti-CHL).


Here is what I am WANTING - I would like something (a law or court case) that defines SCHOOL has being affiliated with a PUBLIC SCHOOL.

From what I can tell, there is NOTHING - nadda - zip - zilch - that would either classify what we do as a school or not-a-school. It currently seems to be left up to the whim & opinion of whatever local authority-type we happen to be talking to at the moment... And that legal limbo is very uncomfortable...

[Charles L. Cotton]

Bump because I would like to see further discussion on this question...

Seems to me a school HAS to include teaching academics (readin', writin', and 'rithmatic), not skills like karate or dance only.

I'm going to keep pushing this issue...

Let's say my homeschool group get's someone to donate the $8mil we need to build our own facility . The 2 main uses of the facility are:
(1) athletics - we already have our own homeschool teams (basketball, volleyball, etc), but we often have a VERY hard time finding a place for practices & games. Currently we often use a gym at a church - but those are not always available.

(2) A location for co-ops to meet. Homeschool co-ops can take many forms & serve different purposes. ONE of the things the co-op my wife used to belong to was so that 5-6 moms could get together and do ACADEMICS (your point above) as a group. For example, if one mom knew Spanish, she would teach Spanish to all of the kids; another mom might teach a science class; etc. Fwiw, about 50% of the MOMS in that co-op were CHL holders (and the other 50% were certainly not anti-CHL).


Here is what I am WANTING - I would like something (a law or court case) that defines SCHOOL has being affiliated with a PUBLIC SCHOOL.

From what I can tell, there is NOTHING - nadda - zip - zilch - that would either classify what we do as a school or not-a-school. It currently seems to be left up to the whim & opinion of whatever local authority-type we happen to be talking to at the moment... And that legal limbo is very uncomfortable...

I'm not sure what you are asking that hasn't been covered. Home-schooling doesn't turn your home into a school. The act of "teaching" doesn't turn the location into a school. "School" isn't globally defined in the Penal Code, but a definition can be found in the "Gun Free School Zone" §46.11. It defines "school" to be "a public or private elementary or secondary school." Although this definition is limited to that Section, i.e. TPC §46.11, it gives guidance as to the meaning of the term "school." This coupled with statutory a construction requirement that words be given their common meaning unless otherwise defined Tex. Gov't Code §311.011, and it is clear that a school is a public or private elementary or secondary school.

Chas.

[TxFig]

I'm not sure what you are asking that hasn't been covered. Home-schooling doesn't turn your home into a school. The act of "teaching" doesn't turn the location into a school. "School" isn't globally defined in the Penal Code, but a definition can be found in the "Gun Free School Zone" §46.11. It defines "school" to be "a public or private elementary or secondary school."

Although this definition is limited to that Section, i.e. TPC §46.11, it gives guidance as to the meaning of the term "school." This coupled with statutory a construction requirement that words be given their common meaning unless otherwise defined Tex. Gov't Code §311.011, and it is clear that a school is a public or private elementary or secondary school.

The problem is Leeper vs Arlington ISD (http://tinyurl.com/nhpy7g - the landmark decision for homeschooling in Texas) defines homeschooling as a private school. From a legal stand point, there is NO DIFFERENCE between a private school of 1000 students and a homeschool.

Iow - homeschool = private school.

Therefore, if I am reading the statute you cited above correctly, homeschools WOULD fall under the definition of a school.


See the reason for my concern?


For obvious reasons, I am not concerned with homeschooling activities that take place in a private home. But I am talking about homeschool activities that take place in a facility elsewhere (a church, a donated or rented building, or a homeschool facility).


Note that this is a bit more than a "what if" situation - my homeschool group recently ran into this situation. We were donated the use of a 1800 sqft building. The local fire marshal came in and said that "since we were a school, we had to abide by the codes for schools". Basically, we lost the free use of a building (and the donor lost the tax break they were earning by letting us use it).
Now granted, our case involved fire code issues. But it could have just easily been CHL related.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I'm not sure what you are asking that hasn't been covered. Home-schooling doesn't turn your home into a school. The act of "teaching" doesn't turn the location into a school. "School" isn't globally defined in the Penal Code, but a definition can be found in the "Gun Free School Zone" §46.11. It defines "school" to be "a public or private elementary or secondary school."

Although this definition is limited to that Section, i.e. TPC §46.11, it gives guidance as to the meaning of the term "school." This coupled with statutory a construction requirement that words be given their common meaning unless otherwise defined Tex. Gov't Code §311.011, and it is clear that a school is a public or private elementary or secondary school.

The problem is Leeper vs Arlington ISD (http://tinyurl.com/nhpy7g - the landmark decision for homeschooling in Texas) defines homeschooling as a private school. From a legal stand point, there is NO DIFFERENCE between a private school of 1000 students and a homeschool.

Iow - homeschool = private school.

Therefore, if I am reading the statute you cited above correctly, homeschools WOULD fall under the definition of a school.


See the reason for my concern?


For obvious reasons, I am not concerned with homeschooling activities that take place in a private home. But I am talking about homeschool activities that take place in a facility elsewhere (a church, a donated or rented building, or a homeschool facility).


Note that this is a bit more than a "what if" situation - my homeschool group recently ran into this situation. We were donated the use of a 1800 sqft building. The local fire marshal came in and said that "since we were a school, we had to abide by the codes for schools". Basically, we lost the free use of a building (and the donor lost the tax break they were earning by letting us use it).
Now granted, our case involved fire code issues. But it could have just easily been CHL related.

You read far too much into Leeper. That case dealt with an alleged civil rights violation under 42 U.S.C. §1983 related to Texas' compulsory school attendance pursuant to the Texas Education Code. It had absolutely nothing to do with what constitutes a "school" for purposes of the Texas Penal Code. Leeper has no precedential value in determining what constitutes a "school" for purposes of Chp. 46 of the Texas Penal Code.

Chas.

[C-dub]

Even if it were, wouldn't the owners/operators/regulators of said school be able to grant permission for whoever they wanted to carry in their "school?"

[TxFig]

You read far too much into Leeper. That case dealt with an alleged civil rights violation under 42 U.S.C. §1983 related to Texas' compulsory school attendance pursuant to the Texas Education Code. It had absolutely nothing to do with what constitutes a "school" for purposes of the Texas Penal Code. Leeper has no precedential value in determining what constitutes a "school" for purposes of Chp. 46 of the Texas Penal Code.

I know I'm not reading too much into Leeper re: defining a homeschool as a private school - I spend alot of time with both
Texas Homeschool Coalition (http://www.thsc.org) and Homeschool Legal Defense Association (http://www.hslda.org). Both of those groups deal with legal issues regarding homeschooling on a daily basis.

But you're right in that it does not affect Chp 46 in any way - which is kind of my point and how it relates CHL issues (to keep this on topic for this forum). It would appear based on Chp 46 that private schools ARE included in the automatic list of places forbidding CHL holders from carrying, correct?

If that's so, then because homeschools ARE private schools, it becomes a question as to whether homeschool activities would also fall under the same prohibition.



Obviously I have an agenda in pursuing this - both from a homeschooler point of view as well as a CHL holder. In a nutshell that agenda would be to remove private schools from Chp 46. Doing this would be a benefit to private schools (including but not limited to homeschools) as well as CHL holders.