Mistaken ID?

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Excaliber
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Re: Mistaken ID?

Post by Excaliber »

WildBill wrote:
Excaliber wrote:Training officers to shoot any unidentified person in civilian clothes who is holding a gun would be, in my opinion, negligent in the extreme. I don't know any competent trainer who would do so, but individual officers might adopt this approach on their own.
Nobody is suggesting that LEOs are being trained to shoot "unidentified person[s] who is [are] holding a gun". My point is that if there continues to be a prevailing attitude among LEOs that "civilians" should not possess guns, then this type of "mistaken identity" will continue to happen and innocent citizens will suffer. I believe that it is a matter of people's core beliefs and attitudes rather than policy or training. The Sullivan Act in New York City dates back to 1911 so these anti-gun sentiments date back more than 100 years. It's the tribal culture of "Us" versus "Them."
Unfortunately, I am aware of a situation where the chief of a university police department, to help justify his opposition to campus carry legislation, stated his officers are in fact trained to shoot anyone who is in possession of a gun and who is not identified as a law enforcement officer.

If any of his officers are ever involved in a shooting, it's a pretty good bet he'll be spending some quality time on a witness stand explaining the legal, moral and tactical basis for that position.
Excaliber

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One Shot
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Re: Mistaken ID?

Post by One Shot »

This is just one more reason for CHLers not to go chasing BGs down the street as this person did with her .380 Bersa. She could have been shot, the same as the NYPD cop.
I would also question a plainclothes officer chasing an apparent non-felon down the street. Maybe due to the personal connection to the vehicle?
I also agree with above speculation the officers concluded (wrongly) the person they shot was commiting a crime.
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Re: Mistaken ID?

Post by G.C.Montgomery »

One Shot wrote:
This is just one more reason for CHLers not to go chasing BGs down the street as this person did with her .380 Bersa. She could have been shot, the same as the NYPD cop.
I would also question a plainclothes officer chasing an apparent non-felon down the street. Maybe due to the personal connection to the vehicle?
I also agree with above speculation the officers concluded (wrongly) the person they shot was commiting a crime.
Even if it wasn't the officer's vehicle, I'd still expect the officer to chase the suspect. It's chasing the suspect with a gun in your that bugs me. Still, knowing that many cops have a habit of leaving unsecured guns in their cars, the deceased may have believed his suspect was armed. We don't know.

I do know that one report says the deceased officer died of a GSW that went in on the left side of his back, hit a vertebrae and his heart before stopping under the skin on the left side of his chest. Without seeing the incident in person, that doesn't jive with the report the deceased officer was turning toward the officer who fired. But, this is just the garbage printed in newspapers and may be totally wrong.

GM
When you take the time out of your day to beat someone, it has a much longer lasting effect on their demeanor than simply shooting or tazing them.

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Excaliber
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Re: Mistaken ID?

Post by Excaliber »

G.C.Montgomery wrote:
One Shot wrote:
This is just one more reason for CHLers not to go chasing BGs down the street as this person did with her .380 Bersa. She could have been shot, the same as the NYPD cop.
I would also question a plainclothes officer chasing an apparent non-felon down the street. Maybe due to the personal connection to the vehicle?
I also agree with above speculation the officers concluded (wrongly) the person they shot was commiting a crime.
Even if it wasn't the officer's vehicle, I'd still expect the officer to chase the suspect. It's chasing the suspect with a gun in your that bugs me. Still, knowing that many cops have a habit of leaving unsecured guns in their cars, the deceased may have believed his suspect was armed. We don't know.

I do know that one report says the deceased officer died of a GSW that went in on the left side of his back, hit a vertebrae and his heart before stopping under the skin on the left side of his chest. Without seeing the incident in person, that doesn't jive with the report the deceased officer was turning toward the officer who fired. But, this is just the garbage printed in newspapers and may be totally wrong.

GM
Although the back shot may appear to suggest the shooting was unjustified, the location of the fatal wound in this case does not in fact preclude a reasonable decision to fire on the part of the officer who did so.

The news accounts relate that the deceased officer received 3 wounds: left arm, left side, and left side of back. When people are shot, they often twist their bodies in reaction to the hits before falling to the ground. This happens too quickly for the person on the other side of the engagement to react to the rapidly changing position. The result is hits on the front, side, and back of the gunfight loser.

The sequence of the hits in this case is important: If the back shot was the last shot fired and the left arm hit was the first, the phenomenon I described may be responsible. This would especially make sense if the deceased officer was right handed. If he twisted to his left when challenged, this would have made the gun hand move in the direction of the challenging officer, and the officer who fired could easily have interpreted the motion as a threat to him.

When he fired and struck the other officer in the left arm, a twist back to the right would have been a natural response and would have exposed the left side and left back in sequence. If the reverse hit sequence (back first, left arm last) turns out to be the case, a justification defense will require significantly more explaining.

In any case, as others have pointed out, this tragic situation reinforces the fact that it is not a good idea to go running down the street with gun in hand and without readily visible law enforcement credentials prominently displayed - meaning it's never a good idea for a civilian. Even with the credentials, it's a high risk move unless done in concert and continuous communication with other readily identifiable officers who are aware of the pursuer's location and identity.
Excaliber

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
G.C.Montgomery
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Re: Mistaken ID?

Post by G.C.Montgomery »

Excaliber wrote: Although the back shot may appear to suggest the shooting was unjustified, the location of the fatal wound in this case does not in fact preclude a reasonable decision to fire on the part of the officer who did so...
I agree completely. Fact is "we" don't know anything beyond what's in the news. As I've said, that information is inherently suspect because the media has never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
When you take the time out of your day to beat someone, it has a much longer lasting effect on their demeanor than simply shooting or tazing them.

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Re: Mistaken ID?

Post by One Shot »

Maybe we won't have to rely on the media.
No video yet?
Surely the exterior of the precinct is covered.
Nothing from the street?
There seem to be cameras everywhere these days.
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Re: Mistaken ID?

Post by seamusTX »

No charges for the officer who shot the deceased officer.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/nyreg ... wards.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://manhattanda.org/whatsnew/press/2009-08-13.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nothing to see here. Move along. Lawsuit at 11.

- Jim
Fear, anger, hatred, and greed. The devil's all-you-can-eat buffet.
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