No CHL required to carry under certain circumstances

[psehorne]

DISCLAIMER: I am not an attorney and am not giving legal advice. I am only trying to understand our Texas laws.

PRIOR to Sept. 1, 2007, Penal Code 46.02 was worded as follows:

A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club

Note that this rule makes no statement regarding concealed or not, traveling or not, etc.

Penal Code 46.15 listed exceptions to 46.02, including:

46.15(b) (b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(2) is on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control unless the person is an employee or agent of the owner of the premises and the person's primary responsibility is to act in the capacity of a security guard to protect persons or property, in which event the person must comply with Subdivision (5);
(3) is traveling;
(4) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor's residence, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;

At this point (PRIOR to Sept 1, 2007) it was legal to carry a handgun if you were in either of the above three situation. There were other exceptions also, but are not pertinent to this discussion (CHL holders, LEOs, etc.).

Even without a CHL, you could have a a handgun on or about your person as long a you were traveling. Note that there was no requirement that you be in your vehicle or that the weapon be concealed. (I don't believe this was the intent of the law, but who knows.... It implies I could buy a ticket from my local Trailways or Greyhound bus terminal and open carry to my destination. hee, hee, hee...)

House Bill 1815, effective Sept. 1, 2007, changed the rules a bit. Both 46.02 and 46.15 were changed. Basically the exception provided by 46.15(b)(2) was moved to 46.02 and reworded somewhat. The net affect was to make it legal to carry in your home or vehicle (whether or not you are traveling) and to require that in your vehicle the weapon be concealed (unless your are traveling, because "is traveling" exception of 46.15 was left intact.

Below is the current wording of 46.02.

> PC 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person
> commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly
> carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if
> the person is not:
> (1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's
> control; or
> (2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned
> by the person or under the person's control.
> (a-I) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly,
> or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a
> motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's
> control at any time in which:
> (1) the handgun is in plain view; or
> (2) the person is:
> (A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor
> that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic;
> (B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
> (C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section
> 71 .Of.
> (a2) For purposes of this section, "premises includes real property
> and a recreational vehicle that is being used as living quarters, regardless
> of whether that use is temporary or permanent. In this subsection,
> "recreational vehicle means a motor vehicle primarily designed as
> temporary living quarters or a vehicle that contains temporary living
> quarters and is designed to be towed by a motor vehicle. The term
> includes a travel trailer, camping trailer, truck camper, motor home,
> and horse trailer with living quarters.
> (b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under this
> section is a Class A misdemeanor.
> (c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree if the
> offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a permit by
> this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.

Note that "is traveling" is still in 46.15 as an exception. Link to HB1815http://www.legis.state.tx.us/Search/Doc ... ightType=1 with the changed wording noted

[surprise_i'm_armed]

psehorne:

Welcome, neighbor.

Your subject seems to be misleading. If I read your OP correctly, you are trying to
rebuild Texas law in past years w/ regard to carry options without a CHL.

It might behoove you to get up to speed on CURRENT laws.

Stick with us here on the forum. We'll show you the ropes.

That being said, IANAL, and there are other folks here on the forum who are much
quicker on the draw with CURRENT legal definitions than I.

Over and out.

SIA

[psehorne]

psehorne:
It might behoove you to get up to speed on CURRENT laws.

I quoted current law, even provided a link. There have been changes to the laws since Sept 1, 2007, of course, but not to those portions that I quoted above. If you think otherwise, please provide a link to the pertinent current law. I'm here to be educated.

[psehorne]

LEOs may not be up-to-date on the laws. Local judges may not interpret the law the way I have. The Legislative branch of the government and the Judicial branch are staffed by different people. The Judicial system might interpret the law differently than the Legislative branch intended. Often the Judicial system refers to 'precedence' in deciding a case, especially where this is any doubt about the meaning of the law. However, in my personal view there is no ambiguity or vagueness about the laws posted. However, I have been told that even though it is "black and white" doesn't mean one would not incur cost and inconvenience in defending one's self (and maybe still lose).

I'm not recommending anyone take a trip and open carry.... This is an intellectual exercise and hopefully will provoke additional interesting dialogue, opinions, etc.

If any lawmakers are reading this, maybe it will help them to see a flaw in the way the law is worded. And if my interpretation is flawed, I'm more than willing for that to be pointed out to me - with objective evidence.... not opinions with no basis of fact.

[wford]

46.02 was modified because even after "traveling" was defined in order to allow car carry there were those LEO's/DA who said they
would still arrest for car carry and let a jury decide if someone met the traveling requirments. Based on this I personally would never
try to carry under the traveling exception.

[psehorne]

...there were those LEO's/DA who said they would still arrest for car carry and let a jury decide if someone met the traveling requirments. [/quot]

That statement is true and is understandable.

46.02 was modified because even after "traveling" was defined

I believe that 'traveling" still remains undefined. If you know otherwise please post a link or valid reference.

In any event, the current law clearly does not consider concealed carry while in your motor vehicle a violation, whether traveling or not.

PC 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
> (1) ...
> (2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control.
(a-I) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:
> (1) the handgun is in plain view;

[boomerang]

These might help with some background.

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... f=7&t=9954" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... =7&t=13751" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... =7&t=14870" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... =7&t=15309" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 15&t=18756" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... =7&t=19564" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 23&t=19830" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Beiruty]

be careful here:

In TX, you cannot open publicly unless while hunting or on your property, or your business, or your employer business *with his permission*.
To carry concealed you need a valid CHL, period.
Even if you have a CHL there are places you can not go, like 51% bars and posted 30.06 private places, public schools, prison and courts.

Just remember we cannot make laws work for us!

[psehorne]

In TX, you cannot open publicly unless !

Show me where it says that.

[psehorne]

Before this goes much futher, let me say this. I have found this forum to be very informative. I've felt very welcome. Many members have provided very useful information, life experiences, suggestions, and more. For that I am very thankful that I discovered TexasCHLForum.com

On the other hand, when it comes to law many opinions are expressed that are not based on fact, are based on the way the law used to be written, or on incomplete knowledge of the laws. I've been guilty myself of such (not necessarily on this forum). That is why, for each statement I have made, I have provided the excerpt from the Penal Code upon which my opinion is based.

If you make a statement, please back it up with the legal reference your statement is based upon. "Because it has always been that way" or "Because Mr. Upstanding Citizen said so and I know he knows the law" are not good enough.

So. Let's enjoy the dialogue... and hope that we all benefit from it....

[joe817]

In TX, you cannot open publicly unless !

Show me where it says that.

You did Paul, in your opening statement when you quoted PC 46.02(a). See also PC 42.01(a)(8). See also 46.035(a)

[boomerang]

or your employer business *with his permission*.

That's a common opinion but I can't find that in the law.

[psehorne]

In TX, you cannot open publicly unless !

Show me where it says that.

You did Paul, in your opening statement when you quoted PC 46.02(a). See also PC 42.01(a)(8). See also 46.035(a)

I also pointed out that 46.15 (b)(3)says

46.15(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
...
(3) is traveling;
...

[joe817]

In TX, you cannot open publicly unless !

Show me where it says that.

You did Paul, in your opening statement when you quoted PC 46.02(a). See also PC 42.01(a)(8). See also 46.035(a)

I also pointed out that 46.15 (b)(3)says

46.15(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
...
(3) is traveling;
...

Ok. One down and 2 to go. Care to comment on the other 2 that I pointed out? We ARE discussing open carry, are we not?

[Mike1951]

psehorne, here's a suggestion.

Everything you asked has been discussed umpteen times. You could have spents hours reading results from the search function.

Then, when you have something worthwhile to contribute, by all means let us hear from you.

Instead, your first posts are, at the least, confrontational if not downright argumentative.

Not the best first impression.

Would you care to back up and start again?