Box 'O Guns... (Warning: Image Heavy)

[The Annoyed Man]

Sometimes the most interesting things happen...

A friend of mine's father in law is now in a nursing home in failing health. My friend calls me yesterday and says that they've just gotten a trio of guns from his FIL, and did I want to come over and see them? I said sure, and dropped by a little later.

He takes me over to the kitchen counter, and there is an old VERY nice Marlin 99C rifle with a nice checkered stock. He says he's going to keep it to teach his wife how to shoot. I congratulate him on the find, and on her willingness to learn to shoot it.

Next, he slides over to me a red, white, and yellow El Producto cigar box (NOW with JAVA DARK WRAPPER!!). Hmmmmmmmm.... This could be interesting. I opened it and was genuinely entertained. He said, "do you want to take it home and do some research?" He might as well asked me if I wanted a date with Carrie Underwood. I told him I'd take it home, take some pictures, and post them on my favorite gun website to see what I could learn. So you guys are going to have to help me here!

I open the box to see what we have here:


Interesting, n'est pas?

Next, the revolver, right side view (there are no markings whatsoever on this side of the pistol; also, I took no pictures of the hammer cocked, but the firing pin is pinned into the hammer, just like any newer revolver):


Now, the left side view (lots of markings on this side):


Now for the markings:
Left side plate:


Barrel top (the words on top say, "BEST AMERICAN CARTRIDGES ARE WHOSE THAT FIT BEST THE B.H. REVOLVER"; obviously made by Beistegui Brothers of Spain):


Caliber Markings, apparently .38 Long Colt:


Crudely scratched "XXX" on lower strap:


Lastly, in the bottom of the box is a ziploc baggie with 6 cartridges that appear to be .38 Special, not Long Colt (if there is a visible difference), so I took a picture of one of those alongside a .38 Special cartridge taken from my 642 Airweight. So, on the left is a 125 Grain Remington +P Golden Sabre, and on the right is the cartridge taken from the baggie. If anyone has an easily measurable way of telling the difference between the two cases without pulling the bullet on the older cartridge, I do have a dial caliper I could check it with. Both cartridges will chamber in both my 642 and in the B.H. revolver.


A final comment, the cartridges came with the gun, and the FIL who owned is a really old guy. He said when he was young, he used to shoot rabbits all the time with it; but I have no idea if the cartridges provided are the same as what he used to shoot rabbits with.

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NEXT UP:

A interesting looking little semi-auto from Harrington & Richardson. Right Side (I apologize that some of these images are not as clear):


Left Side (the lever on the right side appears to serve no function at all; it does not lock the slide open, I tried a bunch of times):


Right side markings:


Left side markings (X2):



Top view (top extractor):


Rear view (the slide to frame fit was exceptional on this little pistol; it really was a tight fit):


Magazine release and magazine (2 pics):



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PLEASE TO DISCUSS!

[G.A. Heath]

I saw a revolver almost identical to that once, about 15 years ago, I am not sure exactly but I want to say the owner explained that the metal was not upto handling a full power .38 special load. I am not 100% sure of that but I want to say he used a down loaded 38 special in it. I also want to say he said the cartridge was not .38 long colt but a .38 long from europe.

[gemini]

The H&R is a "Self-Loader". produced from 1912-1916. about 16,500 made in 6.35mm (.25).
From pics it looks to be worth about $150-200 retail.

The revolver is a .38 long colt. Here is a link that explains it better and in fewer words than i can.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_LC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the same company manufactured under the name Grand Precision, Fabrique D'armes De
Eibar, Spain. Worth maybe $75 tops. Not much monetary value.

I say clean them up and keep them. A little bit of family history. As Mr Heath
alluded....If actually fired I would use only a reduced load. maybe get it magnafluxed
to check for frame cracks prior to use.

[The Annoyed Man]

Gemini, thanks for the information.

I don't think that the revolver is worth much either; and even if it were normally worth more, this particular example has so much old pitting, rust, and missing finish as to be nearly worthless today.

I'm going to clean & lubricate both pistols up as much as I can, and will be giving them back to my friend with a strict recommendation of "don't ever fire these!"

[The Annoyed Man]

OK, then...

I've done a little more research on the H&R pistol, and here's some things I found out:

• The design is British. It was first introduced by Webley & Scott in 1905, who were producing it in England. They licensed it to H&R for production in the U.S. as a way of getting around the import tariffs.
• This pistol says "PAT AUG 20:07, APRIL 13, 1909" on the slide. Webley & Scott first introduced the pistol in England in 1905, so I take that to mean that the first date of 08/20/1907 is the US patent (for purposes of US manufacturing under license). According to Shooting Times, the license from Webley to H&R was obtained in 1909, so 04/13/1909 must be the licensing date.
• H&R's production began in 1912 and stopped in late 1916, and a total of 16,630 were produced. Since I don't have the month in 1912 that production started, but I know it stopped in late 1916, but seems safe to extrapolate that production was at a rate of 4,200-4,300 per year at full swing.
• The serial number on this gun is VERY low in the 4 digits, only barely in the 4 digits, so I think it is safe to put year of manufacture as 1912, well within the first quarter's production.
• The lever on the left side is not a slide release, it is a safety lever. The gun fires when the lever is in the lower position. Closer inspection of the first of the two photos showing left side markings reveals the word "SAFE" at a 45º angle on the slide, just above the lever. When that is showing, the gun safety is on. To fire the gun, one must tilt the lever upwards at an angle, where it stops at a detente, obscuring the word "SAFE."
• The pistol has an internal hammer, not a striker like the .32 pistols H&R was manufacturing at the same time — also under license to Webley. (Put THAT in your pipe, Gaston Glock! Striker fired pistols being manufactured before World War One!)
• I found take down instructions in a year old thread at the Firing Line forum, and I have just successfully field stripped this little midget (that just didn't sound right, did it?) preparatory to cleaning it.
• I found numbers stamped onto the bottoms of the slide and barrel assemblies indicating that this is a parts matching gun to the serial# on the frame.

I had no idea yesterday that I would be a gun historian today — for a model I don't even now, no less.

Now, another question for you guys... I found 3 minuscule unfired rounds of .25 ACP in a second little baggie that came in the cigar box. Dare I??? What do you guys think?

[Purplehood]

Considering the age of the piece, I would probably opt to try it with new underpowered ammo and see how it handles.

I will freely admit to not having anywhere near the gun-knowledge that you folks have...

[joe817]

Interesting pieces there TAM, thanks for sharing. I know absolutely nothing about either gun, although when I first glanced at the H&R I thought a first model Webley. Then I saw the grips, and that confused me.

As far as shooting it with those cartridges, I would after I inspected them closely and cleaned them, and also the pistol, especially the barrel. It seems to be in decent shape. Enjoy!

[The Annoyed Man]

The chamber and barrel are quite dirty... don't know if they've ever been cleaned. Also, at the leading edge of the chamber, mostly on the top, but also arcing down to either side, there is a white powder residue, which am guessing is oxidized lead. The rifling closest to the chamber along the top of the barrel have several (4 or so) spots of red rust that are obvious, but small. It's hard to tell what shape the rest of the barrel is in, and whether it will be pitted from corrosive primers or not. Hopefully not. But I think that this gun will probably clean up OK. Otherwise, the overall condition of the metal contact surfaces on the frame, slide, and barrel assemblies are very dry, and the whole thing just needs some patient and careful cleaning and TLC.

One other thing, these little pistols were mostly blued, but some had a nickle finish which, according a folded up piece of paper of undetermined age which is folded up inside the box alleges, adds approximately 10% to the value of the gun at whatever percentage of finish it still has. It doesn't show so much in the photos, but to the naked eye, when the light hits it just right, it looks almost as though it might have been nickle plated. There's a shininess to it that doesn't look like a blued finish. We'll see after I get it all cleaned up.