Psych question...

[hbkkicker]

I have been seeing a psych doctor for a few years, mostly for anxiety issues but I know he has mentioned bipolar before as well. I have completed my CHL class but I have not mailed my packet just yet because I am trying to decide if I should go ahead and attach a letter from the doctor right up front when I mail the packet or if I should wait and see if anything comes up when they do all their checking at the DPS office. I am not sure how they go about finding all of your medical records and everything but I do know that when I first started seeing the doctor that he had me try some medications to see if they helped that are considered pretty heavy drugs. I am not on anything that heavy anymore, but am worried it is going to effect my CHL license. What would you recommend?
Thanks,

[seamusTX]

I'm not in the recommending business.

I will point out that people are barred from getting a CHL under the following conditions:

• diagnosis at any time by a licensed physician that the person suffers or has suffered from a psychiatric disorder or condition consisting of or relating to:
  (A) schizophrenia or delusional disorder;
  (B) bipolar disorder;
  (C) chronic dementia, whether caused by illness, brain defect, or brain injury;
  (D) dissociative identity disorder;
  (E) intermittent explosive disorder; or
  (F) antisocial personality disorder.
• alcohol or drug addiction

Being treated for anxiety or depression is not a barrier to getting a CHL.

What you could do is ask your therapist whether he thinks you have a condition that would make you ineligible for a CHL. The term "bipolar" is used a lot without a formal diagnosis.

Note the term "licensed physician." That means a psychiatrist. Most psychotherapists are not MDs. If you want to get a clean bill of health according to the law, you would have to get it from a psychiatrist, which is going to be expensive.

No one seems to know how DPS checks medical records, if they do at all. I've never heard of an application being turned down because someone had short-term outpatient psychotherapy or took commonly prescribed drugs like Prozac or Xanax.

- Jim

[tarkus]

I think you have two options if you want a CHL.

1. Find out if bipolar disorder was a diagnosis or if it was only conversation about symptoms and possible diagnoses. A simple anxiety disorder should not disqualify you from getting a CHL. (Same for depression or ADHD.) If it was an actual diagnosis then ask your doc ("a licensed physician whose primary practice is in the field of psychiatry") for a note stating that "the psychiatric disorder or condition is in remission and is not reasonably likely to develop at a future time." Send the note with the application. (I'm assuming your doc is an MD based on the drug prescriptions. If that's incorrect, see Jim's comment above.)

2. Send in the application and hope for the best. (Assuming you were never involuntarily committed.)

[Zee]

I'm a therapist but not an MD. I know my diagnoses can't bar a CHL but I am always cautious anyway. I must use something as a diagoses to get paid so I use the least descriptive just on principle.

[srothstein]

There is some good news and some bad news that I found when i checked the rules. I started checking because I think the term licensed physician may include psychologists and not just psychiatrists. I could not find a definition in the quick search to answer either way.

I did find that the list Jim posted is not the only way to be disqualified. There is also this clause:

(d) For purposes of Subsection (a)(7), a person is incapable of exercising sound judgment with respect to the proper use and storage of a handgun if the person:

(1) has been diagnosed by a licensed physician as suffering from a psychiatric disorder or condition that causes or is likely to cause substantial impairment in judgment, mood, perception, impulse control, or intellectual ability;

(2) suffers from a psychiatric disorder or condition described by Subdivision (1) that:

(A) is in remission but is reasonably likely to redevelop at a future time; or

(B) requires continuous medical treatment to avoid redevelopment;

This could be interpreted to include just depression if it is severe enough. It also indicates that your medication may be enough, if the DPS considers the diagnosis enough. The list Jim provided is a list that has been predetermined to meet this clause. it is not necessarily the exclusive list. DPS usually uses the legally provided list but may expand it.

Then there is the good news:

(f) Notwithstanding Subsection (d), a person who has previously been diagnosed as suffering from a psychiatric disorder or condition described by Subsection (d) or listed in Subsection (e) is not because of that disorder or condition incapable of exercising sound judgment with respect to the proper use and storage of a handgun if the person provides the department with a certificate from a licensed physician whose primary practice is in the field of psychiatry stating that the psychiatric disorder or condition is in remission and is not reasonably likely to develop at a future time.

This says that it does not matter what your diagnosis is, if the doctor will sign a form saying you are medically qualified. So, if your doctor is a psychiatrist, you really need to talk with him about this. I would probably recommend talking with your doctor and seeing what he thinks about the whole idea. And while acknowledging that you should talk to him, I have to also admit that most doctors appear to be anti-gun from the start. I hope yours will work with you on your CHL.

[nils]

If you're only getting help for anxiety, then my advice is for you to not include any reference to your counseling. Anxiety isn't a disqualification for getting a CHL, so don't muddy the water by mentioning it. Trust me, you don't want to make it any harder for the people handling your file. Plus, they don't,and won't have any access to your medical history. You'll be fine....good luck.

[WildBill]

There is some good news and some bad news that I found when i checked the rules. I started checking because I think the term licensed physician may include psychologists and not just psychiatrists. I could not find a definition in the quick search to answer either way.

Psychologists are not physicians. Physicians are licensed medical practitioners with either an M.D. or D.O. degree.

[srothstein]

There is some good news and some bad news that I found when i checked the rules. I started checking because I think the term licensed physician may include psychologists and not just psychiatrists. I could not find a definition in the quick search to answer either way.

Psychologists are not physicians. Physicians are licensed medical practitioners with either an M.D. or D.O. degree.

Not being satisfied with my quick search, I dug further into it and found that you are correct. To find the firm definition, I had to dig through the Occupations Code and licensing sections. The definition of physician is kind of vague, but basically is someone licensed to practice medicine. The definition of practicing medicine is also vague and can include psychology, but when you get into the requirements for the license to practice, it makes it clear that you must have graduated from a proper medical school, including osteopathic medicine. That eliminates psychologists from the definition of physician.

So, if the original poster has not been seen by a psychiatrist, and is only seen by a psychologist or therapist of some type, he has not been seen or diagnosed by a physician for the purposes of the CHL.

[WildBill]

So, if the original poster has not been seen by a psychiatrist, and is only seen by a psychologist or therapist of some type, he has not been seen or diagnosed by a physician for the purposes of the CHL.

It must have been a psychiatrist if he was prescribed medication.

[seamusTX]

A therapist who is not an MD cannot prescribe medications, but any MD can. Therapists usually have a relationship with an MD that writes prescriptions based on the therapist's recommendation. Sometimes they're in the same clinic.

Family doctors prescribe antidepressants and tranquilizers like Hallowe'en candy, without making a formal diagnosis.

It's unusual for someone who is not completely off his rocker to see a psychiatrist as a first resort. They're very expensive. If you have insurance, they send you to a non-MD shrink first.

- Jim

[WildBill]

A therapist who is not an MD cannot prescribe medications, but any MD can. Therapists usually have a relationship with an MD that writes prescriptions based on the therapist's recommendation. Sometimes they're in the same clinic.

Family doctors prescribe antidepressants and tranquilizers like Hallowe'en candy, without making a formal diagnosis.

It's unusual for someone who is not completely off his rocker to see a psychiatrist as a first resort. They're very expensive. If you have insurance, they send you to a non-MD shrink first.

- Jim

True, but for something like Bi-Polar, this diagnosis isn't made lightly and only after multiple visits. On the other hand, some doctors ...

[seamusTX]

True, but for something like Bi-Polar, this diagnosis isn't made lightly and only after multiple visits. On the other hand, some doctors ...

I sincerely don't know one way or the other.

It seems like the term is used to describe a lot of people who are just immature and emotional.

There is a growing tendency to classify troublesome behavior as a psychiatric diagnosis, such as Oppositional Defiant Disorder, which used to be known as brattiness. But I digress.

- Jim

[WildBill]

Back to hbkkicker's OP. The only way to find out is to ask the doctor. Set up an appointment and tell him that the government will be performing a background check and you wanted to know what they would find out about your treatment. You don't need to tell him that it is for a CHL. Ask him what his records specifically state about your diagnosis. Tell him that you remember him talking about Bipolar and ask him if you were diagnosed for that condition. IANAL or an MD.

[Sangiovese]

.... This says that it does not matter what your diagnosis is, if the doctor will sign a form saying you are medically qualified. So, if your doctor is a psychiatrist, you really need to talk with him about this. I would probably recommend talking with your doctor and seeing what he thinks about the whole idea. And while acknowledging that you should talk to him, I have to also admit that most doctors appear to be anti-gun from the start. I hope yours will work with you on your CHL.

I agree with your observation that a lot of docs are anti-gun. And we all know that although their personal biases should not play a role in their willingness to provide a "clean bill of health" there is a risk that it will. However, I think the issue can be easily avoided. I don't see anything that says the doc must provide the certificate directly to the dps, or even address it to them. Therefore, he doesn't need to know why you are asking him to certify your mental health status. Just provide the listed requirements, and ask him to provide you with a dated, signed statement on his office stationary that states that you meet all of those requirements. He does not need to know why you are asking for it.

Of course, there may be some specific form or other requirements that I dont know about, but to the untrained eye it seems that you could do something along these lines and avoid having to discuss the CHL with your doc.

[ScottDLS]

All this makes me wonder what the DPS really does to check your medical records. I know you give them permission to when you sign the affidavits with the application. But really, how the heck do they know who your doctor is, what drugs you are taking, and what diagnosis you have. I wouldn't go attaching any more information to your application than required. If you're not aware of being diagnosed with a disqualifying medical condition, then I don't think you can be responsible for diagnosing yourself. Let them ask for additional info if they need it.