Non-CHL holders rights

[ChuckW]

This may sound like a strange question for a CHL forum where most of us already have a CHL or are waiting for one. But, what exactly are the carry rights of a non-CHL holder?
Suppose, for example, the non-CHL holder wants to show off a new handgun to a friend and has to park two blocks away so needs to walk that distance on city streets. Obviously open carry is out of the question, so is a cased handgun OK, and isn't that a form of concealment? Same question, but suppose someone is going to a perfectly legal place to use a handgun like an indoor range - but, for one reason or another needs or walk or even take a bus to get there?

[srothstein]

There is an exemption in the law for certain types of non-licensed carry. One of the exemptions is for sporting activities and includes enroute from the person's home or car. So, if you are going shooting, you can carry to get there.

The question about just going to a friends house is a little trickier. In general, the law prohibits carry on or about your person. So, carry in the trunk of your car is okay to get there, but walking the two blocks would eb much harder to make legal. You might be able to get away with it legally if the gun is unloaded and inside a case that is locked and not quickly opened. What you are trying to do is show that despite being carried in a case in your hands, the gun would not meet the legal definition of "on or about your person" with its implication of quickly accessible. Even then, you would be really taking a chance with the law, but it is not too much of a realistic chance. In most places in Texas, the cops use common sense when applying the law, so this is all you would need to do.

I have to admit that there are a few places where I would not want to chance this type of carry. The previous Harris County D.A. made Houston one of those places, but I have not heard any confirmed horror stories about it from there lately.

[chabouk]

The statutes don't even allow you to carry it out of the store after you buy it, but that was settled a long time ago by case law.

Every non-CHL carrying a handgun to a gun show looking to sell or trade is in technical violation of the law. Gun store employees who open carry are in technical violation of the law. Luckily, we never got to the point that police wanted to crack down on guns to the point that they would enforce the letter of the law instead of the intent. (Except for concealed carry, of course... that used to not be enforced except against "bad people".)

[RiveraRa]

In general, the law prohibits carry on or about your person. So, carry in the trunk of your car is okay to get there, but walking the two blocks would eb much harder to make legal.

Ill call that one. According to the MPA you are allowed to carry concealed, ON YOUR PERSON, while en route to and from your home to your vehicle. You are also allowed to carry concealed,on your person, while in said vehicle (as long as you are not comitting a crime, in a gang, etc....read the law, IANAL). The moment you step out of your vehicle you must be disarmed. So if you stop for gas, you better leave it in the car.

As for walkign down the street, again IANAL, but with out reading the TX PCs I would assume that if it were locked in a case inside a range bag you would be safe. In that situation it would not be readily available to you.

[Purplehood]

I personally wouldn't sweat it if I were carrying it in its case or a range bag without a mag in it, with or without a valid CHL.

[joe817]

I think the key focus of this discussion revolves around PC 46.15, NONAPPLICABILITY. (P.46 of manual).

As it is 5 pages long in the manual I won't do a copy/past job. But it can be found here, for those who don't have the manual:

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.46.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BTW, for those who are not aware that the manual is available in PDF format, it can be found here:

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/ftp/forms/LS-16.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the manual that CHL instructors hand out at your class, and the one you receive if you apply on line.

[austin-tatious]

Gun store employees who open carry are in technical violation of the law.

I believe this is not true. If the owner of the store authorizes it, employees in any store can open carry. However, after searching the TX CHL Handbook, I cannot find it specifically stated. Does anyone know, or did I make this up?

OK, edited to add that it appears that PC 46.15 (b) (2) applies:

(2) is on the person's own premises or 'premises under the person's control unless the person is an employee or agent of the
owner of the premises and the person's primary responsibility is to act in the capacity of a security guard to protect persons or property, in which event the person must comply with Subdivision (5);

46.15 (a)(7) explicitly states 46.02 and 46.03 does not apply to an employee supervising a business licensed to sell alcohol. That plus 46.15 (b)(2) seems to me to allow authorized employee handgun carry.

[Purplehood]

Gun store employees who open carry are in technical violation of the law.

I believe this is not true. If the owner of the store authorizes it, employees in any store can open carry. However, after searching the TX CHL Handbook, I cannot find it specifically stated. Does anyone know, or did I make this up?

I have met numerous store owners that believe it is valid.

[joe817]

There is a great gun store in Fort Worth, Winchester Gallery. It's a very large store with 8-10 employees working at any particular time. This includes the Shooting Gallery, their indoor shooting range. Everyone of the employees open carries. The indoor range is frequented by several LEO's every day, and open carry by employees has ever been an issue.

[ScottDLS]

There is a great gun store in Fort Worth, Winchester Gallery. It's a very large store with 8-10 employees working at any particular time. This includes the Shooting Gallery, their indoor shooting range. Everyone of the employees open carries. The indoor range is frequented by several LEO's every day, and open carry by employees has ever been an issue.

My opinion (so you know what it's worth) is that a gun store owner/lessee can delegate "control" over the property/premises to all employees on duty. So the store is property under their control and they can lawfully open carry as long as they don't violate some other statue.

[joe817]

My opinion (so you know what it's worth) is that a gun store owner/lessee can delegate "control" over the property/premises to all employees on duty. So the store is property under their control and they can lawfully open carry as long as they don't violate some other statue.

Yup and I believe that also applies to ANY business, not just gun stores.

[Dragonfighter]

Years before CHL and Motorist Protection Acts, I carried in a vehicle. I had studied the statutes and though the laws were exceptional (I.E. "...it is a defense to prosecution that...") and not permissive, "traveling" was a defense as was owning or being in control of a property. I had checked with the DPS attorney about concealed, non-concealed, loaded or unloaded and they told me that the law made no distinction BUT they "preferred" concealed as it may otherwise be construed as "carrying in a manner calculated to alarm".

So when my wife took over a uniform distribution center in the Irving Blvd. area of Dallas, I bought her her first handgun, she carried in a waist purse at the warehouse, but she could have just as legally OC'd there.

[chabouk]

My opinion (so you know what it's worth) is that a gun store owner/lessee can delegate "control" over the property/premises to all employees on duty. So the store is property under their control and they can lawfully open carry as long as they don't violate some other statue.

Yup and I believe that also applies to ANY business, not just gun stores.

I eagerly await the citation to statutory or case law that supports this position.

[boomerang]

"on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control unless the person is an employee or agent of the owner of the premises and the person's primary responsibility is to act in the capacity of a security guard to protect persons or property"

[chabouk]

"on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control unless the person is an employee or agent of the owner of the premises and the person's primary responsibility is to act in the capacity of a security guard to protect persons or property"

(bold added)

If that was a response to my request for a citation to statutory law, please read the part in bold. (If you were agreeing with me that the statute doesn't support the previous posters' opinions, thank you for the cite.)

If an employee's primary responsibility is to act in the capacity of a security guard while armed (since that's what we're talking about), the Texas Occupations Code, TOC 1702.161 has a whole lot to say about the matter.

SUBCHAPTER G. SECURITY OFFICER COMMISSION REQUIREMENTS

Sec. 1702.161. SECURITY OFFICER COMMISSION REQUIRED.
(a) An individual may not accept employment as a security officer to carry a firearm in the course and scope of the individual's duties unless the individual holds a security officer commission.

(b) An individual employed as a security officer may not knowingly carry a firearm during the course of performing duties as a security officer unless the commission has issued a security officer commission to the individual.

(c) A person may not hire or employ an individual as a security officer to carry a firearm in the course and scope of the individual's duties unless the individual holds a security officer commission.

An employee may openly carry a firearm if: their primary responsibility is security; and they have a security officer commission; and they are carrying openly while wearing a distinctive uniform indicating they are security (see 1702.169).

If the employee meets all the criteria to open carry, it's then illegal for them to concealed carry while on duty or while in uniform.

A few years ago, before I registered and started posting, I think there was a forum member who was really up on this stuff. I think he was a former LEO who worked in private security and personal protection. Anyone remember his name?

I am not a security guard, but I did remember enough of that guy's posts to let me look up the details in the Texas statutes.