Non-compliant signs in general

[wgoforth]

Like most of us, I see a non compliant sign and continue carrying anyway. Question that just popped in my head is this... if we get issued personal instruction, verbal or written, that we may not carry in that establishment, then we may not. Is there then any sense in which the non-compliant sign could be considered AS our written prohibition? (If I am making sense here)

Second, one of our local stop-n-robs has a sign that has the wording of the 51% sign (specifying that the carrying of licensed or unlicensed firearms is a felony). I've never seen one like that, and since it is an offical looking sign, where would they even get one like that?
Just curious
Wayne

[dicion]

Like most of us, I see a non compliant sign and continue carrying anyway. Question that just popped in my head is this... if we get issued personal instruction, verbal or written, that we may not carry in that establishment, then we may not. Is there then any sense in which the non-compliant sign could be considered AS our written prohibition? (If I am making sense here)

Negative, under 30.06, written notice has to meet the same wording requirements as a sign. The only difference is the letter sizing required. It is also listed as "a card or other document"
It has been debated whether a sign that is posted meets this requirements, but the general consensus on this forum has been that a 'card or other document' has to 1) Not be a sign, and 2) physically given to you.

Second, one of our local stop-n-robs has a sign that has the wording of the 51% sign (specifying that the carrying of licensed or unlicensed firearms is a felony). I've never seen one like that, and since it is an offical looking sign, where would they even get one like that?
Just curious
Wayne

Anyone can have any sign made anywhere. I'm sure with 15 minutes, photoshop, a decent printer, and a nice frame, I could make you an official looking 51% sign as well

[Keith B]

Second, one of our local stop-n-robs has a sign that has the wording of the 51% sign (specifying that the carrying of licensed or unlicensed firearms is a felony). I've never seen one like that, and since it is an offical looking sign, where would they even get one like that?
Just curious
Wayne

If it looks like the one below, but the 51% is in red, then it is an actual 51% sign. However, it is probably not a valid posting. if you contact the TABC they will check and if the sign is improperly posted they will contact the store and have them remove it.

[psehorne]

...one of our local stop-n-robs has a sign that has the wording of the 51% sign (specifying that the carrying of licensed or unlicensed firearms is a felony).

The 51% rule applies to establishments that obtain 51% or more of their income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on site consumption.

IANAL

[shootthesheet]

dicion is correct. "Written notice" has a specific definition. Nothing that is written outside that definition can restrict us. Anything posted must follow that definition or it is not a binding "sign" which it becomes when it is posted. I have walked past 8X11 signs with proper wording in English and Spanish at least three times that I can remember. I have never had a card or note handed to me with the proper wording or been verbally told that they didn't want guns in the place. Verbal is very broad so it could be as little as "We have a no guns policy...." in my opinion. Bluff is often more effective than power.

[wgoforth]

Second, one of our local stop-n-robs has a sign that has the wording of the 51% sign (specifying that the carrying of licensed or unlicensed firearms is a felony). I've never seen one like that, and since it is an offical looking sign, where would they even get one like that?
Just curious
Wayne

If it looks like the one below, but the 51% is in red, then it is an actual 51% sign. However, it is probably not a valid posting. if you contact the TABC they will check and if the sign is improperly posted they will contact the store and have them remove it.

Correct. It does not have 51% on it in any color, simply the rest of the wording. I've never seen a sign like that. I wonder how they get away with a legal term (felony) if the sign itself is illegal? Hey, can I declare postmen bringing bills to my house a felony??

Wayne

[Dragonfighter]

This begs the question, how would they know you are carrying to give you written or verbal notice?

[chabouk]

dicion is correct. "Written notice" has a specific definition.

And "verbal notice" isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Correct. It does not have 51% on it in any color, simply the rest of the wording. I've never seen a sign like that. I wonder how they get away with a legal term (felony) if the sign itself is illegal?

The sign isn't illegal, it's required. Every TABC-licensed business, including convenience stores that sell beer for off-premises consumption, is required to display this sign (or the "red 51%" version if they are a 51% establishment).

These signs give notice that the unlicensed possession of a firearm increases from a misdemeanor to a felony on those premises. Does not apply to CHL holders.

[frazzled]

dicion is correct. "Written notice" has a specific definition. Nothing that is written outside that definition can restrict us. Anything posted must follow that definition or it is not a binding "sign" which it becomes when it is posted. I have walked past 8X11 signs with proper wording in English and Spanish at least three times that I can remember. I have never had a card or note handed to me with the proper wording or been verbally told that they didn't want guns in the place. Verbal is very broad so it could be as little as "We have a no guns policy...." in my opinion. Bluff is often more effective than power.

Has this been tested in the courts yet?

[wgoforth]

dicion is correct. "Written notice" has a specific definition.

And "verbal notice" isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Correct. It does not have 51% on it in any color, simply the rest of the wording. I've never seen a sign like that. I wonder how they get away with a legal term (felony) if the sign itself is illegal?

The sign isn't illegal, it's required. Every TABC-licensed business, including convenience stores that sell beer for off-premises consumption, is required to display this sign (or the "red 51%" version if they are a 51% establishment).

These signs give notice that the unlicensed possession of a firearm increases from a misdemeanor to a felony on those premises. Does not apply to CHL holders.

Dunno if we are talking about the same thing or not. This sign has the same wording as a 51% sign, but no 51% written. It specifies unlicensed OR LICENSED firearm not permitted or it will be a felony. You only referenced unlicensed, whereas this sign included licensed as well. I go into stop n robs all the time and never seen these, so it threw me.

Wayne

[Keith B]

dicion is correct. "Written notice" has a specific definition.

And "verbal notice" isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Correct. It does not have 51% on it in any color, simply the rest of the wording. I've never seen a sign like that. I wonder how they get away with a legal term (felony) if the sign itself is illegal?

The sign isn't illegal, it's required. Every TABC-licensed business, including convenience stores that sell beer for off-premises consumption, is required to display this sign (or the "red 51%" version if they are a 51% establishment).

These signs give notice that the unlicensed possession of a firearm increases from a misdemeanor to a felony on those premises. Does not apply to CHL holders.

Dunno if we are talking about the same thing or not. This sign has the same wording as a 51% sign, but no 51% written. It specifies unlicensed OR LICENSED firearm not permitted or it will be a felony. You only referenced unlicensed, whereas this sign included licensed as well. I go into stop n robs all the time and never seen these, so it threw me.

Wayne

Sounds like they tried to print a version of a 51% sign themselves, and then post it improperly. I would just walk right on by it if they are just a regular ol' stop & rob and there is no hidden honky tonk in the back of the place.

[wgoforth]

dicion is correct. "Written notice" has a specific definition.

And "verbal notice" isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Correct. It does not have 51% on it in any color, simply the rest of the wording. I've never seen a sign like that. I wonder how they get away with a legal term (felony) if the sign itself is illegal?

The sign isn't illegal, it's required. Every TABC-licensed business, including convenience stores that sell beer for off-premises consumption, is required to display this sign (or the "red 51%" version if they are a 51% establishment).

These signs give notice that the unlicensed possession of a firearm increases from a misdemeanor to a felony on those premises. Does not apply to CHL holders.

Dunno if we are talking about the same thing or not. This sign has the same wording as a 51% sign, but no 51% written. It specifies unlicensed OR LICENSED firearm not permitted or it will be a felony. You only referenced unlicensed, whereas this sign included licensed as well. I go into stop n robs all the time and never seen these, so it threw me.

Wayne

Sounds like they tried to print a version of a 51% sign themselves, and then post it improperly. I would just walk right on by it if they are just a regular ol' stop & rob and there is no hidden honky tonk in the back of the place.

Oh thats EXACTLY what I'm doing! I just couldn't figure what was up with it as it is a metal sign that looks legit, but yet I know it couldn't be!
Wayne

[srothstein]

Actually, the sign with the wording of the 51 sign, but no red 51 is a legal sign and is required to be posted on all hopsitals and nursing homes. This is in the Govenrment Code and was put in when they made them specifically illegal to carry in. When they added the requirement for the 30.06 sign, they never did away with this requirement.

But this requirement no longer has any legal validity other than being a rules violation against the hospitals' license for not having it. I don't think anyone ever cares about them anymore. I used to argue that this sign might be construed as giving legal notice by a court since it was the sign required to be posted by the hospital. I have come around to believing the current wording of the law means we could ignore this sign if there is no proper 30.06 sign.

[RPB]

Actually, the sign with the wording of the 51 sign, but no red 51 is a legal sign and is required to be posted on all hopsitals and nursing homes. This is in the Govenrment Code and was put in when they made them specifically illegal to carry in. When they added the requirement for the 30.06 sign, they never did away with this requirement.

But this requirement no longer has any legal validity other than being a rules violation against the hospitals' license for not having it. I don't think anyone ever cares about them anymore. I used to argue that this sign might be construed as giving legal notice by a court since it was the sign required to be posted by the hospital. I have come around to believing the current wording of the law means we could ignore this sign if there is no proper 30.06 sign.

You didn't notice all those old people in there playing checkers and such?

[gwashorn]

I recently saw the sign Wayne shows with the LICENSED and UNLICENSED words at the local liquor store I go to. They also have the other one that does not have the LICENSED word. They do not serve open liquor and no RED 51% sign. yet it bothers me they added that sign. I have been meaning to ask him next time I am in. But it still bothers me because I don't want to be the test case. BTW, it is the store on I-45 at FM517 by the Krogers store. I like them and do business there, just the sign erks me.

Gary