Another Balistic ?

[Keith]

Allways brain storming when I get bored. Let me first say that I own all the calibers im going to talk about and love them all. Many talk about what the more powerful round (balistic) wise. The 40 cal and 357 mag comes up often. It seems that the 357 usually gets the its the more powerful round. I think it may be much closer then some think.

Talked to several ammo companys and they have said that when they give ballistics for a 357 mag its from a 8 3/4 inch barrel and the 40 is from a 5 inch barrel. This would give a huge advantage to the 357 mag? So when I start fig out balistics from two identical 5 inch barrels both rounds seem to be about equal or very close to each other. Mayby im missing something.

Then with the 10mm ive read were some people downplay its power when comparing it to the other 2 calibers. Again this confuses me. On paper its got better balistics then both rounds but is also a bigger bullet. I dont see were either one of the smaller rounds can hang with the 10mm.

Just curious as again im bored and have been wanting to talk about this for a while. Again I carry a 357 mag 50% of the time and 40cal/10mm/45cal the rest of the time. Depends on my mood that day. Just trying to show that im not bad mouthing any of these calibers nor do I have a favorite. I carry the 357 the most because its very comfortable to me. I guess my questions--are there alot of missinformed people out there as to what the balistics are saying.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Keith:

I'm not that much up on ballistics as far as which round goes how many fps
(feet per second) given an "n" inch barrel, but let me say this about .357.

It seems like when I used to hear someone talk about a .357 it was in some
kind of reverent tone, indicating that this was a serious handgun.

Some police departments prefer .357's as their standard sidearm.

But what puzzles me is that this round is smaller than a .38, which is generally
seen as the smallest caliber that is not a "mouse gun."

Do .357's have some higher penetration rate through cars' sheet metal or glass
due to higher fps? Is that why some PD's choose them?

Does a .357 contain some kind of magic number of grains that makes for more
accuracy?

I know that the FAM's (Federal Air Marshals) use Speer Gold Dots in their
.357 Sigs.

SIA

[Jeremae]

The 357 magnum uses the exact same diameter bullet as the 38 Special. The case is just slightly longer so it can not be loaded into guns chambered for the 38 special alone.

With newer smokeless powders and fired from a well built gun, 38 special can be loaded up hotter the the original 357 magnum rounds.

The 357 sig is a 10mm case necked down to use a 357 bullet. It does not have as much case capacity as the 357 Magnum (or 38 Special) and therefore can not be loaded quite as hot.

The 9mm rounds (380 auto, 9mm mak, 9mm luger, 9mm largo and 38 super) all use a .355 diameter bullet.

A lot of a particular caliber's abitlity is linked to the case size and shape as well as the bullet diameter, weight and shape. A lot of people's understanding of the effectiveness of a caliber is more hearsay (from movies mostly) than reality.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Jeremae, or anyone:
What's a 9mm largo? I had not heard of that one before.

Next question:
Do .38's come in .38, .38 Special, and .38 Super?
Are they all slightly different in length?

SIA

[mgood]

What's a 9mm largo? I had not heard of that one before.

I think it's longer than the 9x19mm. It's like 9xtwenty-something. Almost as long as a 38 Super.
When I worked in the gun store, one customer had an old European pistol of some sort that he loved and he was always looking for 9mm Largo for it. I'd never heard of it before that. I was pretty sure, at first, that he didn't know what he was talking about and that he really needed 9mm Luger. Then he brought the pistol in and showed me and we looked it up in one of those "Cartridges of the World" books and there it was.

Do .38's come in .38, .38 Special, and .38 Super?
Are they all slightly different in length?

The bullets themselves are, I think, pretty much interchangeable. The same bullet might be loaded into more than one type of ".38 or 9mm."
But the case, the cartridge length are different.
38 Super is an auto cartridge. It's like 9x23 or something like that.

I could be (probably am) off on some of these, but the general idea:
9x17 = 9mm Browning = 9mm Short = .380 Auto = .380 ACP. Different names for the same thing.
9x18 = 9mm Makarov.
9x19 = 9mm Parabellum = 9mm Luger = 9mm Nato = what most people are talking about when they say "9mm"
You'll find 9x20, 9x21, 9x22, etc in competition guns where the shooters are looking for the perfect low recoil round that just makes "major power factor."
9x23 = .38 Super

Lots and lots of cartridges have been named thirty-eight-something. I saw a whole magazine article on that subject a year or so back. Most of it was over my head and talking about obscure cartridges that were of no interest to me (but probably fascinating to history buffs into cartridges of the Old West).
The .357 Magnum may use the same bullet as a .38 Special, but the .357 has a longer case and more powder.

All of these use a bullet that's about .355" or thereabouts.

[Houston1944]

Do the math and calculate the energy of the various rounds. The energy formula in ft-lbs is (V2 x wt) / 450400…V=fps, wt =gr. This will only confirm that we carry handguns because a 30-30 won't fit under our shirts.

You will find a wide range of factory ammo between all the calibers so it is difficult to determine a "winner". I have some factory 110 gr 357 mag loads that have 2 ft-lbs less energy than one of my 115 gr 9mm handloads. This is an unusual exception because in almost all other factory loads the 9mm does not come close to the 357 mag.

Bullet design, velocity and weight all have to be considered when comparing calibers. This is like trying to compare cars, there really is no "answer" due to so many variables.

[mgood]

Do the math. . . . This will only confirm that we carry handguns because a 30-30 won't fit under our shirts.

Right, my ideal defensive weapon would probably have wheels and a trailer hitch so I could tow it behind my pickup.
But since it would be awkward in many situations, a handgun will have to do.
If you knew you were going into a gunfight, you would nearly always be better off with a shotgun or rifle than a handgun. We carry handguns because they are convenient, and we hope we never actually have to use them in a fight.

I'll still bet on the competent shooter with a .22 pistol over an incompetent with any caliber.

[LarryH]

If you knew you were going into a gunfight, you would nearly always be better off with a shotgun or rifle than a handgun.

If you knew you were going into a gunfight, you'd go somewhere else (IMHO), unless, of course, gunfighting is your job.

I'll still bet on the competent shooter with a .22 pistol over an incompetent with any caliber.

Yep.

[mgood]

If you knew you were going into a gunfight, you would nearly always be better off with a shotgun or rifle than a handgun.

If you knew you were going into a gunfight, you'd go somewhere else (IMHO), unless, of course, gunfighting is your job.

Yes. There aren't many situations where you would intentionally get into a gun fight. The main exception I can think of is a soldier in combat. I don't know of any military forces who would choose to go into battle armed only with sidearms.
Police entry teams bring shotguns, sub-machine guns, rifles, flash-bang grenades, tear gas, etc. Most cops go around all day with a pistol. But when they think there's a serious chance of actually having to fight, they bring more firepower.

Getting off topic. I'm just saying that just about every weapon is a compromise. Even if it were legal, it would be impractical to drive around all day in a tank or fly to work in a helicopter gunship. Carrying a rifle would make you better armed than carrying a pistol. But when carrying that rifle, your hands aren't free to do much of anything else. Pistols are carried because they can be put in a holster, leaving the hands free for other things. They're a compromise, but they're better than nothing. A full-size 1911 is a great weapon, as far as handguns go, but if your activities and mode of dress don't allow anything more than a Kel-Tec .380, then that .380 in your pocket is better than the .45 you left at home.

[LarryH]

"I believe we are in violent agreement, sir."