Had a similar situation when the lady and I ventured down to some festival near Deep Ellum.
(not the what if scenerio, the real one)
This type of scenario is a bad one. The thing to remember, as per current Texas law, you have a duty to retreat in this situation. I can't think of any way that you couldn't retreat unless you were in a dead end alleyway.
This is why I hate the duty to retreat. Ok, so you retreat, then what? You turn your back to your opponent, who could just as easily pull a gun and shoot you in the back. Not a good idea.
My stance is this. Assuming i'm walking around while nearby stores or businesses are open, me and whoever was with me would duck inside the nearest one. That will allow me a few things:
1) more help
2) witnesses.
Hopefully they will have given up, as most bums want easy targets. If he's some mentally ill guy, then having the business owner call 911 is a great idea. If something goes down, you have witnesses, if he comes inside the business ranting and raving, and assaulting you or something.
I think this is an important point: Witnesses.
A fellow in Philadelphia got his carry permit revoked in a situation like this. Here's a link to his livejournal post about what happened.
NOTE: This link contains a word or two that you might not want your 10 year old daughter to read, but she's probably heard the word on TV, so here goes:
http://hartt-tommel.livejournal.com/17784.html
(If this link is deemed inappropriate, please delete it with my blessing. I figured it was borderline, but I think considering the post, it's something smart to read.)
Scenario question
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Last edited by nitrogen on Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
.השואה... לעולם לא עוד
Holocaust... Never Again.
Some people create their own storms and get upset when it rains.
--anonymous
Holocaust... Never Again.
Some people create their own storms and get upset when it rains.
--anonymous
it may not be aplicable in every situation, but if the guy is being too persistant (ie: you get the feeling that he has ill intent) the threat of force can be used.
I recall a story I read of a CHL holder who went into a convenient store restroom. Two guys follwed him in and gave him the old "can we have some gas money... come on man give us some money... I said give us money" routine. Due to their posture and persistance, he felt very threatened, but by law he was not justified in using deadly force. He put his hand to his gun and turned strong side away- never drawing or even flashin his weapon- but he made it evident that he was prepared to defend himself with force. The guys backed down and he left without incident.
If I don't feel the situation warrants that type of action yet, I would definately make the effort to put a lot of space or an obstacle between myself and the instigator and physically get out of the situation as soon as possible.
I recall a story I read of a CHL holder who went into a convenient store restroom. Two guys follwed him in and gave him the old "can we have some gas money... come on man give us some money... I said give us money" routine. Due to their posture and persistance, he felt very threatened, but by law he was not justified in using deadly force. He put his hand to his gun and turned strong side away- never drawing or even flashin his weapon- but he made it evident that he was prepared to defend himself with force. The guys backed down and he left without incident.
If I don't feel the situation warrants that type of action yet, I would definately make the effort to put a lot of space or an obstacle between myself and the instigator and physically get out of the situation as soon as possible.
Currently, use of force is only justified if a reasonable person would not have retreated.
The trick will be finding that "reasonable" point.
Myself, I would try to place an obstacle between myself and the BG. Preferably, I'd add distance too, but shoppers are usually at a disadvantage there (kids in tow, etc.). Put a shopping cart between you and him, then get between two vehicles. He can't reach you at that point without going over the cart, or around/over the vehicles.
If he continues trying to get within your space at that point, I'd say you've done everything a reasonable person would do.
Kevin
The trick will be finding that "reasonable" point.
Myself, I would try to place an obstacle between myself and the BG. Preferably, I'd add distance too, but shoppers are usually at a disadvantage there (kids in tow, etc.). Put a shopping cart between you and him, then get between two vehicles. He can't reach you at that point without going over the cart, or around/over the vehicles.
If he continues trying to get within your space at that point, I'd say you've done everything a reasonable person would do.
Kevin
My response (putting the cart between you and him, then backing between two parked cars) is designed as a way of satisfying yourself that no matter what you do, he's going to keep coming. Either that, or he breaks off and leaves you alone.
If he keeps coming, no reasonable person would continue to retreat in the face of what is obviously a determined attack. That doesn't mean you're cleared to use DF (or the threat thereof), especially if there has been no overt threat or implied threat of unlawful DF (grabbing in his pocket as if he has a pistol, displaying a weapon of any kind, issuing verbal threats, etc.)
But if the BG does those things, you're probably clear to threaten DF in response.
And now, here comes the big what-if: being legally justified to threaten DF is not the same as being legally justified to use DF, so what if he tries to bluff you? "Oh, whatchoo gonna do, shoot me? Bring it on, tough guy! I ain't afraid of you!"
Stop. Rewind. Several steps back, insert "Dial 9-1-1 on your cell phone". Let the dispatcher record your multiple orders for the BG to stop chasing you. Don't worry about having a conversation with the dispatcher; dial the phone and drop it in your shirt pocket, so you have two hands free for more pressing matters. But do be sure to announce loudly where you are, so the dispatcher knows where to send the police.
Okay, resume play.
This is why it's a bad idea to threaten DF if you're not justified in actually using DF. Some folks just don't bluff. Someone demanding fifty cents in Wal Mart parking lot late at night just might not have much left to live for, you know what I mean?
Kevin
If he keeps coming, no reasonable person would continue to retreat in the face of what is obviously a determined attack. That doesn't mean you're cleared to use DF (or the threat thereof), especially if there has been no overt threat or implied threat of unlawful DF (grabbing in his pocket as if he has a pistol, displaying a weapon of any kind, issuing verbal threats, etc.)
But if the BG does those things, you're probably clear to threaten DF in response.
And now, here comes the big what-if: being legally justified to threaten DF is not the same as being legally justified to use DF, so what if he tries to bluff you? "Oh, whatchoo gonna do, shoot me? Bring it on, tough guy! I ain't afraid of you!"
Stop. Rewind. Several steps back, insert "Dial 9-1-1 on your cell phone". Let the dispatcher record your multiple orders for the BG to stop chasing you. Don't worry about having a conversation with the dispatcher; dial the phone and drop it in your shirt pocket, so you have two hands free for more pressing matters. But do be sure to announce loudly where you are, so the dispatcher knows where to send the police.
Okay, resume play.
This is why it's a bad idea to threaten DF if you're not justified in actually using DF. Some folks just don't bluff. Someone demanding fifty cents in Wal Mart parking lot late at night just might not have much left to live for, you know what I mean?
Kevin
Stresses the importance of being the first one to call 9-1-1.nitrogen wrote:http://hartt-tommel.livejournal.com/17784.html
Kevin
KBCraig is right on the get the cell phone & dial 911. This needs to be the first thing you reach for. Even before pepper or other intermediate weapon. It does not take Perry Mason to tell the BG who you are going to call. He will either break off or you have the greater threat of continuance. It is not an illegal threat of any force to call the police.
Make the statement early & follow through for your personal protection. Protection against what? Having to use greater force when there is no evident weapon yet. All the time getting between the vehicles. If it continues to escalate, get the lady to roll under a truck or other high vehicle. More evidence that you were threatened. You protected her.
Several of us that shoot together practice these "no shoot" incidents all the way through the call & talking to the officer. Giving discription & direction of escape. It has surprised all of us when we started how focused we were on the escalation to worse trouble & never got a description of the "suspect". ie. The one of us who was the BG would get out of sight & another would be the LEO & ask for a description of the BG & what he was wearing. "Victim" has been out there shooting targets, visiting, then going through the incidents & could not tell what color the shirt was that the "BG" was wearing.
Keep practicing it all.
Make the statement early & follow through for your personal protection. Protection against what? Having to use greater force when there is no evident weapon yet. All the time getting between the vehicles. If it continues to escalate, get the lady to roll under a truck or other high vehicle. More evidence that you were threatened. You protected her.
Several of us that shoot together practice these "no shoot" incidents all the way through the call & talking to the officer. Giving discription & direction of escape. It has surprised all of us when we started how focused we were on the escalation to worse trouble & never got a description of the "suspect". ie. The one of us who was the BG would get out of sight & another would be the LEO & ask for a description of the BG & what he was wearing. "Victim" has been out there shooting targets, visiting, then going through the incidents & could not tell what color the shirt was that the "BG" was wearing.
Keep practicing it all.
Carry 24-7 or guess right.
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txinvestigator
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As I have writen before; if deadly force or no force are your only options, then you are ill prepared.
If your only plan to any threat of any type of force is your handgun, then you are ill prepared.
IMO, the scenario as presented would not warrant even considering a handgun.
If your only plan to any threat of any type of force is your handgun, then you are ill prepared.
IMO, the scenario as presented would not warrant even considering a handgun.
*CHL Instructor*
"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan
Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan
Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
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HighVelocity
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I found myself in similar situations twice before I had my CHL and I was not carrying anything other than a pocket knife.BG *starts walking up*: Come on man, gimme 50 cents.
Me: I don't have anything, don't come any closer to me.
BG *keeps coming closer, this time quicker and more angry*: I need some money man, I'm hungry
The first time I was pumping gas and a guy snuck up on my from the other side of the pump. He was less than 5 feet away when I spotted him.
He asked for money and I removed the pump nozzle from my truck and held it at low ready and said, you've got the wrong guy in a stern voice. He turned and ran.
If you've never tried it, gas pumps have some pressure and getting it square in the face with 93 octane isn't going to be fun.
The second time was in the parking lot of a local sporting goods store. When I got in my truck to leave a man and a woman came up to the drivers door of my truck just as I was about to close it. The woman asked for money because their car ran out of gas and they were stranded.
I told her to back away from the truck or she'd get hit with the door. Then the man starts to get closer so I said in a controlling voice, getting any closer is a bad idea. They backed off. If they had continued, my plan was to hit the gas as the motor was already running. Unfortunately (for them), I was going to be in reverse and would have scooped them both up with the door.
In both situations I called local PD and reported the incident.
Acting like a victim will certainly help you become one. Be a Big Dog, be a Bear, and most likely the BG will back off. They don't want to work for it otherwise they'd get a job. They want it easy. Just be prepared to do what needs to be done if they persist.
I am scared of empty guns and keep mine loaded at all times. The family knows the guns are loaded and treats them with respect. Loaded guns cause few accidents; empty guns kill people every year. -Elmer Keith. 1961
Greetings--
Interesting comment-- about tossing the guy a dollar. I got into the habit of keeping a couple of dollar bills in my shirt pocket. When I was traveling a good bit, I stopped at rest stops on the Interstates. A frequent occurrence was the guy/lady/kids who needed some money for gas ect.
Most of the time, the person was not persistent. I'd just say no and they'd back off. On the occasion when they were overly persistent and I felt concerned, I'd toss them the couple of dollar bills and as they reached for them on the ground I'd back away. Never had anyone continue their annoyance after that. I always figured-- cheaper than calling my atty eh ?
Interesting comment-- about tossing the guy a dollar. I got into the habit of keeping a couple of dollar bills in my shirt pocket. When I was traveling a good bit, I stopped at rest stops on the Interstates. A frequent occurrence was the guy/lady/kids who needed some money for gas ect.
Most of the time, the person was not persistent. I'd just say no and they'd back off. On the occasion when they were overly persistent and I felt concerned, I'd toss them the couple of dollar bills and as they reached for them on the ground I'd back away. Never had anyone continue their annoyance after that. I always figured-- cheaper than calling my atty eh ?
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AV8R
My son and I had to deal with a persistent "bum-on-a-bicycle" at the Whataburger in Denton after a late concert at UNT a while back. After 30 seconds of the usual spiel, he went into the advancing "why not, man" routine. I simply replied, "Because I don't give money to bums." I'm glad he went away at that point, because my son's laughing (at me), I felt, was damaging my credibility.