FBI arrests S&W VP at SHOT show

[TDDude]

I don't by the argument that this isn't an attack on US gun makers. When I start seeing other CEO's from other companies in handcuffs I'll rethink my position ...

There were 100 prosecutions in 2008, 120 in 2009, including Sun Microsystems and Shell.

http://www.securitiesdocket.com/2009/05 ... stigation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is not a crime that you can prosecute like drunk driving. The parties involved want to keep it secret. The FBI needs to use stings, informers, or whistleblowers.

- Jim

OK then. I guess I'll rethink my position.

It's still a dumb law.

[shootthesheet]

I don't by the argument that this isn't an attack on US gun makers. When I start seeing other CEO's from other companies in handcuffs I'll rethink my position ...

There were 100 prosecutions in 2008, 120 in 2009, including Sun Microsystems and Shell.

http://www.securitiesdocket.com/2009/05 ... stigation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is not a crime that you can prosecute like drunk driving. The parties involved want to keep it secret. The FBI needs to use stings, informers, or whistleblowers.

- Jim

The links do help me understand that this is not an isolated case and I thank you Sir.

[The Annoyed Man]

DeLorean was found not guilty by a jury.

Yes, he was... ...but is there anybody who really believes that he was there in that room for completely innocent reasons? I certainly don't.

[seamusTX]

The links do help me understand that this is not an isolated case and I thank you Sir.

Thank you for being open-minded.

There are good reasons behind the FCPA. The way things used to be (and still are in many circumstances), vendors paid huge bribes to corrupt government officials, then built the bribes into the price that the government of the country paid. The funds used to pay the bill were often foreign aid or proceeds of the country's natural resources.

That isn't the end of the money trail. These corrupt officials were or are usually members of antidemocratic political parties that keep their countries in chaos and poverty. Zimbabwe would be a current example.

There are many laws that I think are stupid or wrong -- Texas PC 46.035, for example. But I don't violate them. I try to get them changed.

- Jim

[seamusTX]

DeLorean was found not guilty by a jury.

Yes, he was... ...but is there anybody who really believes that he was there in that room for completely innocent reasons? I certainly don't.

The point is not that he was a clean as the wind-blown snow of Antarctica. It is that the prosecutors failed to convince a jury that he intentionally violated the law.

No doubt a very expensive defense attorney did his job well.

As I wrote above, that may happen here, at least to some of the defendants. However, federal prosecutors have a 90% conviction rate when they get an indictment.

-- Jim

[chabouk]

BATFE is part of DHS. The Attorney General has no authority over it.

ATF is part of DOJ, under the Attorney General, not DHS.

[srothstein]

It's entrapment when you're sympathetic to the defendant. It's a sting when you're not.

While this is how most of us see this type of issue (it even came up in an ethics class I am taking tonight), in actuality, the law is very clear on what constitutes entrapment.

If the FBI approached the gun makers first with the offer, it is entrapment. If the FBI let it be known that the person was a minister for some country and the gunmakers approached him with the offer, it is not entrapment.Who approached whom and offered what when will be critical to this case. I don't trust the FBI nor do I like them, but I have to admit to their general competence in performing stings and avoiding it being entrapment.

But making the arrest at the SHOT show certainly does sound like showboating and an ulterior motive, even if the case is good.

[ninemm]

...However, federal prosecutors have a 90% conviction rate when they get an indictment...

AUSA's won't bother to present evidence to a Grand Jury unless they have a really solid case. The Federal Grand Jury I served on for 18 months only failed to indict on 2 counts of one proposed indictment (out of hundreds, maybe even thousands - it was severl years ago).

[drjoker]

IANAL.

BUT, if the law says you cannot bribe a foreign official and the person they bribed was not a foreign official, but an FBI agent, then just what law did they break??? None, that's what. This is entrapment and a nuisance lawsuit meant to cut into American companies' profits for companies that fail to follow Obama's gun ban agenda. Do I have proof that this is the real reason behind the arrests? No, but I invite you to just think about it like that and decide for yourself.

Besides, how can an American law govern how people do business overseas? What if they were to arrest American companies' execs doing business overseas? What about the national sovereignty of the other country? Wait. American doesn't respect the sovereignty of any other country. American and German tax agents broke in and STOLE the customer lists of all Americans holding Swiss bank accounts. American IRS has offices in "tax havens" like Panama and Hong Kong. They routinely arrest people in foreign countries even though they have no jurisdiction. Now, you can bank on American firearms industry execs getting harassed overseas.

The firearms industry is one of the few profitable industries in this recession and Obama wants to stamp it out. I guess if we're all poor, unemployed, underemployed, and dependent on government "handouts", then he'll dictate over us totally and completely. Socialism at it's finest.

I would understand and agree with the law if it says you cannot bribe domestic polititians, but it doesn't. It bans bribing FOREIGN polititians.

Please people, wake up and write your congressmen, senators, and neighbors. Start chain letters. Run radio ads. Buy newspaper ads. Do everything in your power to fight the power. Don't let the man get you down. THINK. Why didn't BUSH do this at the SHOT show? That law was already around. Why didn't BUSH enforce it?

I'm really glad that the Dems lost their supermajority recently. Let's keep working on the next election. Donate to your representatives. If you don't have money, donate time. Do something. Do anything, Vote Republican. Vote Libertarian. Do something, before it's too late.

Amen brother,


P.S. What's wrong with clinging onto guns and religion???

[ninemm]

...VPs are often "C" level )

A Vice President could be as low as a level "G" employee depending if the title has "of" after it, a comma after it or a '-' after it.

A= CEO
B = COO or CFO or CIO
C = Executive VP
D = Senior VP
E = Vice President of...
F = Vice President, ....
G = Vice President -...

[boomerang]

"C" level generally means Chief Executive Officer, Chief Financial Officer, Chief Operating Officer, and other corporate officers at the top.

[boomerang]

BUT, if the law says you cannot bribe a foreign official and the person they bribed was not a foreign official, but an FBI agent, then just what law did they break??? None, that's what.

Tell that to the people Chris Hansen catches on his show.

Besides, how can an American law govern how people do business overseas?

At the risk of bringing the discussion back on topic, the article linked in the original post in this thread says the meetings happened in the United States. Allegedly.

Caldwell and former company CEO Stephen Gerard Giordanella are alleged to have met with the FBI's undercover agent at the Mandarin Oriental Hotel in Miami to hammer out details of a two-phased contract calling for a total of 3,650 armored body plates. The contract would include a 20 percent "commission" for a man they believed was an African nation's defense minister.

Money changed hands, and in an October 2009 follow-up meeting at Clyde's, a Washington, D.C., restaurant, Caldwell was told the defense minister "was pleased" with the product. The ex-Secret Service agent swallowed the undercover sting hook, line and sinker, according to the indictment.

[drjoker]

BUT, if the law says you cannot bribe a foreign official and the person they bribed was not a foreign official, but an FBI agent, then just what law did they break??? None, that's what.

Tell that to the people Chris Hansen catches on his show.

[/quote]

Oh, don't even get me started on Chris Hansen. He makes me wanna puke. Yes, that's right. None of the guys on his show did anything illegal. After all, the "underage" person is actually an adult actress (at least the episode that I saw). That's why the Collin County DA refused to prosecute. That's why I live in Collin County, because the police, DA, and other publicly elected officials are top notch. Texas is a great state and Collin County is a great county. The DA cited that there wasn't enough credible evidence of wrongdoing to prosecute. That's why I'm a fat check writing Republican.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... ba97d.html

P.S. I want to catch real sex predators, but not at the expense of liberty and justice. Liberty and justice is too valuable to me. Liberty and justice are what makes America greater than any other nation on earth. Giving up liberty and justice to catch a 2-bit "predator" is very short-sighted.

[seamusTX]

ATF is part of DOJ, under the Attorney General, not DHS.

I stand corrected. I thought ATF was moved into DHS when DHS was organized, and ATF was renamed BATFE.

It's embarrassing and sometimes dangerous when I am so sure that I know something that I don't bother to check.

- Jim

[seamusTX]

BUT, if the law says you cannot bribe a foreign official and the person they bribed was not a foreign official, but an FBI agent, then just what law did they break??? None, that's what. This is entrapment ...

That is not the how entrapment works.

First, FCPA explicitly makes it illegal to pass bribes through third parties. So if person A comes to person B and says, "I can get you business with the government of Nigeria, because I am close to the Minister of Defense, but I will need a little baksheesh deposited to this numbered bank account, and the money is paid, that is a violation of the law.

Second, conspiring or attempting to violate a law is itself a violation of the law. We see this all the time with attempted child molestation. Adult cops hang out in online chat rooms pretending to be naive minors. Adult sex offenders (many previously convicted felons, BTW) set up meetings with them. As long as the adult offender initiates the action under the belief that he is soliciting a minor, it is a crime.

(BTW, one of these guys showed up for a meeting with what he thought was a pre-teen girl in my county. He had, among other things, duct tape and an bottle of E.D. drugs in his car. I hope he is still in prison).

We also see this frequently with solicitation of murder. Person A who lacks the nerve to bump off an enemy himself starts asking around shady characters for anyone who knows a hit man. A police informer gets person A in contact with an undercover cop. As long as it is Person A who explicitly comes out and says the he wants the other party killed, he has committed a crime.

Besides, how can an American law govern how people do business overseas? What if they were to arrest American companies' execs doing business overseas?

The U.S. Constitution clearly gives Congress almost unlimited power to regulate foreign trade.

Try shipping product to Cuba, or even visiting there without the permission of the U.S. government, and see what happens.

These laws have been upheld by the courts, generally. I'm no expert on their legislative history.

Why didn't BUSH do this at the SHOT show? That law was already around. Why didn't BUSH enforce it?

I already pointed out that the FBI started developing this case in 2007, before Obama was even considered a serious candidate for president. These cases take time to develop.

I don't for a minute think that Obama is a friend of the RKBA, but he is not capable of orchestrating the actions of the federal government before he was inaugurated. He can't even get everything done that he wants now.

- Jim