Force vs. Deadly Force

[G26ster]

Forgive me, I'm new here, and I'm sure this has been asked before. A search of the archives did not answer my question.

I was sure after my CHL class I was clear on this, but after more study to really be sure I understand the Texas Concealed handgun laws "completely" I am getting a bit confused.
PC 9.01 DEFINITIONS is clear on what "Deadly Force" is, but offers no definition of "FORCE." PC 9.31 SELF-DEFENCE uses the tern "FORCE" extensively. Seems to me ANY use of a firearm is "deadly force," so why is FORCE even mentioned in a handgun statute? Other than showing a weapon to create the "apprehension" of deadly force, what other kind of "force" is PC 9.31 addressing? Thanks for any replies.

[Sinton]

Force itself is pretty vague. Deadly force is "a force when used could cause death." Simply tackling someone to stop them from hurting someone else is not deadly force, but pointing a weapon at that same person is.

Least that is the way it was explained to me in the service and at class.

[G26ster]

Force itself is pretty vague. Deadly force is "a force when used could cause death." Simply tackling someone to stop them from hurting someone else is not deadly force, but pointing a weapon at that same person is.

And that creates the confusion in my mind. It seems to me that any force that is "...not capable of causing death or serious bodily injury" does not belong in a concealed handgun statute. It muddies the waters, so to speak. Also, addressing the last part of your reply, according to PC 9.04, " ....a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force." Thanks for your reply.

[Kythas]

Force itself is pretty vague. Deadly force is "a force when used could cause death." Simply tackling someone to stop them from hurting someone else is not deadly force, but pointing a weapon at that same person is.

Least that is the way it was explained to me in the service and at class.

Pointing a weapon at someone in this circumstance is NOT deadly force, according to Texas law; it's the threat of deadly force:

Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE.
The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

[dicion]

...so why is FORCE even mentioned in a handgun statute?

Here's where you missed it :)

PC 9.31 is not a handgun statute. You will not find the word 'gun' anywhere in it. It is a statute covering All aspects of force and deadly force, from ANY source.
Deadly force CAN be a handgun, but it can also be any other weapon known to cause 'death or serious bodily injury', or even someone's bare hands under the right situation.
Hitting someone intentionally with a car would qualify as Deadly force. Evander Holyfield throwing hooks at some random guy could probably be considered 'Deadly Force'.
It all comes down to what a jury would think a 'reasonable person' would assume.

Now, there is no solid line between force and deadly force. It's all situational, and has to be determined on a per situation basis, with a few exceptions.

As you stated, using, as in firing, a gun is always Deadly force, plain and simple.
As mentioned above, simply pointing a gun at someone has been determined to be possible 'Deadly Force' by case law, even though the statutes say something different.

Also, generally in hand-to-hand combat, pretty much every jury on the face of the planet would most likely rule that an average Man vs. an average Woman is deadly force 99% of the time.
Unless that woman was a professional wrestler, and the man was in a wheelchair.. then it *could* go the other way

[bizarrenormality]

Force itself is pretty vague.

Why do you think that? I think "force" is pretty broad but not vague.

[G26ster]

...so why is FORCE even mentioned in a handgun statute?

Here's where you missed it :)

PC 9.31 is not a handgun statute. :

Ah ha! Now I remember. Thanks for reminding me These are laws "Relating to the carrying of a concealed handgun in Texas." It's the DPS publication title that gets me going totally in the handgun direction (Texas Concealed Handgun Laws and Selected Statutes).