Odd & Uncomfortable Situation

[pdubyoo]

I was up at the church where I attend last night, working on chasing some gremlins out of the sound system, when the pastor came in to talk with me about a situation that he's uneasy about.

He told me about a man that lives in the the neighborhood surrounding the church. He has attended our church a few times, but without any regularity. He was described as a very strange man that wanders around and mumbles to himself a lot...even in church service (mumbling). From time to time, he has strolled into the church building during the week while the staff is there working, and again, wanders around with no real evident purpose. They usually see him coming and meet him in the hall before he gets very far. He's described as a cordial guy, but is assumed to be mentally off-center, just judging from his actions and demeanor.

The pastor had coffee with the pastor of a church across the street last week, and this character came up in conversation, and the pastor of the other church said that the same guy was in one of their church services late last year, and during the middle of the service, he stood-up and made a shooting motion with his hand toward the pastor on the platform at the front of the church. He went-on to say that there were two off-duty police officers in the service that made quick work of removing him from the auditorium. I'm not sure what happened after that, but I can guess that he had an interview downtown.

That same guy came into our church offices earlier this week, and just stuck his head-in to tell the pastor that he would see him on Sunday. Before the pastor could really respond, the guy left the building.

The pastor knows that I carry, and as technical ministries director, I'm usually floating between the sound booth and the video booth at the back of the auditorium during the service. Pastor told me that there would be an enhanced security detail this Sunday. I cautioned him about the conflicts of official sercurity and CHL carriers. I don't know any LEOs that attend the church, but there might be some.

Anyway, it kind of puts a knot in my stomach to think about "what-ifs". You can be certain that I'll be equipped though!!

Any thoughts about this? Especially from some of the carrying preachers on the forum?

[frazzled]

Have you/pastor considered talking with the local PD?

[pdubyoo]

Have you/pastor considered talking with the local PD?

I did suggest that to him, and he said that he's considering it.

[Keith B]

Have you/pastor considered talking with the local PD?

I did suggest that to him, and he said that he's considering it.

He doesn't need to consider it, he needs to DO IT! Even if this guy is harmless, they need to be aware of the issue. If he has a past history of violent behavior, then they should advise. They may even want to put a plain clothes officer in the congregation for a week or two and observe. Even if they don't, you need to have your ushers on the lookout for him and keep a eagle eye on any actions. If he does show up, have them talk to him, welcome him, etc. while observing his behavior. If he is antsy or stand-offish, then one of them can call the police and have him checked out and escorted off property if need be.

[pdubyoo]

Have you/pastor considered talking with the local PD?

I did suggest that to him, and he said that he's considering it.

He doesn't need to consider it, he needs to DO IT! Even if this guy is harmless, they need to be aware of the issue. If he has a past history of violent behavior, then they should advise. They may even want to put a plain clothes officer in the congregation for a week or two and observe. Even if they don't, you need to have your ushers on the lookout for him and keep a eagle eye on any actions. If he does show up, have them talk to him, welcome him, etc. while observing his behavior. If he is antsy or stand-offish, then one of them can call the police and have him checked out and escorted off property if need be.

Good advice Keith. I'll pass that along. I think that if he (pastor) doesn't want to consult the PD about it, I will.

[PJK]

You did strike on an important point. You are NOT an LEO and your rights to intervene are limited. A quick description of the allowable uses of Force and Deadly Force can be found here. http://www.self-defender.net/law3.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As a citizen, you cannot detain or remove this person with deadly force just because someone is there being disruptive. You have to reasonably believe that this person is going to use deadly force to respond in kind. Just showing you have a side arm and pointing it at this person would be the use of deadly force on your end.

The facts are as follows: The person appears mentally challenged, he has made disruptive but non-violent gestures in another church, and he did stick his head in and say he would be there on Sunday. Nothing here indicating a threat. I have told my pastor I will be at service many times, this could have been a kind word.

I would personally watch him well and be on guard. However, don't put yourself in the situation where your pastor has to bail you out of jail after your nice ride for using deadly force against a person that had no intention of any harm.

[Dragonfighter]

I agree with what has been said. Caution should prevail here and PD as well as elders/deacons (insert nomenclature that applies) be made aware. A lot of tragedy can be avoided by not ignoring your instincts. That said, and sorry about the religious allusion but, if you can get the guy saved the demons haunting him may not be an issue anymore. A want to be free is necessary though.

[Excaliber]

Have you/pastor considered talking with the local PD?

I did suggest that to him, and he said that he's considering it.

The "shooting gesture" during a disruption of the service and the promise to be there on Sunday are, taken together, very concerning.

It would be appropriate to remind the pastor that he is responsible for the safety of everyone in the congregation. Even leaving liability issues aside, you might ask him how he would feel if he continues to take the ostrich approach and 4 or 5 members of the congregation die when the foreshadowing behavior that he is well aware of but has taken no action on turns into an active shooter incident on Sunday.

[bdickens]

This guy is showing pre-violence indicators.

[frazzled]

Mayhaps stage an impromptu "bring your shotgun to church Sunday" next Sunday?

[blue]

Wedgwood Babtist Church
Fort Worth TX
1999

Google it.

Prayers sent,
Blue

[MadMonkey]

He had made the shooting motion late last year from what I gather (at a different church), and has just now said that he would be at this church next Sunday (after apparently being here a few times before)... I'd be watchful and ready, but I wouldn't consider that an actual threat. Sounds like the pastor might be reading too much into this.

I wouldn't let my guard down though.

[suthdj]

Have some "non-security" guys sit close to him in the event he does try anything they can respond in a timely manner and he will be none the wiser. I think bringing him into the fold is a better approach then keeping him at arms length when he feels part of something maybe he will have a better demeanor and be less of a threat.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Perhaps you can also add some pepper spray or similar
to your personal defense items.

That way you have an interim stage of defense between
doing nothing and shooting him.

SIA