Is there ever a need to go smaller than 38 Special?

[casingpoint]

More people are reportedly killed intentionally day in and day out around the world by the .32 ACP. Small, light, concealable and highly effective at close range. It may not be the gun they need, but it's the gun a lot of non gun people have always got. Go figure.

[Napier]

The Taurus 709 Slim 9mm might be worth looking into. Not a whole lot bigger than a pocket 380. It is my favorite carry. Quite thin, flat and concealable. And shoots like a dream straight out of the box.

[yerasimos]

More people are reportedly killed intentionally day in and day out around the world by the .32 ACP. Small, light, concealable and highly effective at close range. It may not be the gun they need, but it's the gun a lot of non gun people have always got. Go figure.

I have no facts immediately at hand to rebut these statements, so for now they may be taken at face value as far as I am concerned.

When considering these matters, consider also the variability in medical services available for the gunshot wound victim; some countries' medical services are not as well equipped for handling GSWs as in the USA. Also, the sentence quoted above mentions the intentional use of these weapons; I figure a high percentage of the "people reportedly killed intentionally day in and day out around the world by the .32 ACP" are victims of proactive uses of these smaller-caliber weapons in robberies, pre-meditated murders, extra-judicial killings and other crimes.

As CHLers, we would be more interested in whatever tools would most effectively stop a threat, especially when reacting---under conditions of initiative deficit---to someone else's unlawful use of force against us or our loved ones, which is different from the way criminals use firearms and the way .32 ACP is most "successfully" used. For our purpose, I will always take bigger, heavier bullets pushed with bigger powder charges behind them over smaller/lighter bullets and powder charges, so I believe the .38 Special has the edge over .380 ACP and smaller mousegun cartridges. Also, a J-frame's typically short barrel makes it easier for the user to resist disarm attempts compared to larger handguns---though to be fair, the semi-automatic mouseguns also possess this trait.

Where the J-frame really shines is coupling inherent disarm resistance with induced malfunction resistance. If a semi-automatic's slide is immobilized while the trigger is pulled on a loaded chamber, the cartridge will discharge but the slide will have to be manually cycled before the gun can fire again, so it is temporarily a one-shot weapon. If a semi-automatic's slide is pushed out of battery while the trigger is pulled, the loaded cartridge cannot be fired until the slide returns to battery. If a semi-automatic's magazine gets ejected by way of hands mashing upon the magazine release, at best it is a one-shot weapon until a functioning, loaded magazine is latched into place and a fresh cartridge is chambered.

With the J-frame, there is no slide to be pushed out of battery and no magazine to be ejected at an inopportune moment. The cylinder or an exposed hammer can be temporarily immobilized, but once an opponent's hand is off of the J-frame (both to free the mechanism as well as eliminate any muzzle aversion) it can be expected to possess the same potency as before the opponent laid hands on it. Furthermore, this weapon is capable of contact shots, which combine the effect of both the bullet and expanding gases (powder combustion) to yield highly-destructive wounds.

All considered, a J-frame can combine a good IDPA-recognized cartridge with inherent reliability and predictable sustained-fire capability at extreme close range and initiative deficit conditions, while the semi-automatic mouseguns offer less-powerful cartridges and variable reliability and sustained-fire capability under the same conditions.

J-frame FTW.

[gigag04]

Kahr FTW. (I was so posting this anyway and then saw that yerasimos just said J Frame FTW so I HAD to).




In all seriousness, there are many quality handguns out there. NA vs Kahr vs LCP - you'll hear each of us talk up what we own...it's like bragging about your kid. I want a small .357 revolver too because I'm reading alot of old school FBI books, and thats what those guys had. Everyone has reasons for getting a gun. Many of those mentioned on this forum will serve you fine.

The only word of caution I bring is re: the kel-tec. I've been around too many officers that have had their $250 kel-tec fail on them at a range day. This is unacceptable to me. There are also others that have had no issues with them. You roll the dice if wish. As for me, I'm stacking the deck.

[Rex B]

The only word of caution I bring is re: the kel-tec. I've been around too many officers that have had their $250 kel-tec fail on them at a range day. This is unacceptable to me. There are also others that have had no issues with them. You roll the dice if wish. As for me, I'm stacking the deck.

When I go to the range, the first thing I do is pull my pocket carry weapon, aim and fire. One several occasions, with both the Keltec and the LCP, I have had failure to fire. Somehow the hammer had lost it's reset. I had to cycle the slide to get it running.
This is unacceptable, and it is the reason I currently have a P238 in my pocket.
The rare times I care the LCP, I check the hammer position regularly.
With the P238, I know that I will have to cock the hammer. No surprises.

So right now I'm compromised. I believe a carry pistol needs to be Double Action.
And no, a revolver is not for me. Even and LCR is a bigger lump than my P238, and holds fewer rounds.

What I really want, is a P238 in DA/SA.
In the meantime I'm going to look into the Diamondback.

[gigag04]

The only word of caution I bring is re: the kel-tec. I've been around too many officers that have had their $250 kel-tec fail on them at a range day. This is unacceptable to me. There are also others that have had no issues with them. You roll the dice if wish. As for me, I'm stacking the deck.

When I go to the range, the first thing I do is pull my pocket carry weapon, aim and fire. One several occasions, with both the Keltec and the LCP, I have had failure to fire. Somehow the hammer had lost it's reset. I had to cycle the slide to get it running.
This is unacceptable, and it is the reason I currently have a P238 in my pocket.
The rare times I care the LCP, I check the hammer position regularly.
With the P238, I know that I will have to cock the hammer. No surprises.

So right now I'm compromised. I believe a carry pistol needs to be Double Action.
And no, a revolver is not for me. Even and LCR is a bigger lump than my P238, and holds fewer rounds.

What I really want, is a P238 in DA/SA.
In the meantime I'm going to look into the Diamondback.

My kahr p380 has never ftf, even during the 200 round outta the box break in. I love the 238 too though.

[Rex B]

The only word of caution I bring is re: the kel-tec. I've been around too many officers that have had their $250 kel-tec fail on them at a range day. This is unacceptable to me. There are also others that have had no issues with them. You roll the dice if wish. As for me, I'm stacking the deck.

When I go to the range, the first thing I do is pull my pocket carry weapon, aim and fire. One several occasions, with both the Keltec and the LCP, I have had failure to fire. Somehow the hammer had lost it's reset. I had to cycle the slide to get it running.
This is unacceptable, and it is the reason I currently have a P238 in my pocket.
The rare times I care the LCP, I check the hammer position regularly.
With the P238, I know that I will have to cock the hammer. No surprises.

So right now I'm compromised. I believe a carry pistol needs to be Double Action.
And no, a revolver is not for me. Even and LCR is a bigger lump than my P238, and holds fewer rounds.

What I really want, is a P238 in DA/SA.
In the meantime I'm going to look into the Diamondback.

My kahr p380 has never ftf, even during the 200 round outta the box break in. I love the 238 too though.

So does the Kahr have the same hammer reset issue that those other DAO pistols have?

[duns]

Thanks for all the great advice in response to my original post. Though different opinions were expressed, I'm going to go with the view that the mouseguns are less than ideal and only to be carried when nothing larger is possible. So I will stick with my S&W snubby as the smallest weapon I will carry (I also have a Walther P99C). I haven't had my license long but so far the snubby has always been easily pocketable.

[lrb111]

The only word of caution I bring is re: the kel-tec. I've been around too many officers that have had their $250 kel-tec fail on them at a range day. This is unacceptable to me. There are also others that have had no issues with them. You roll the dice if wish. As for me, I'm stacking the deck.

When I go to the range, the first thing I do is pull my pocket carry weapon, aim and fire. One several occasions, with both the Keltec and the LCP, I have had failure to fire. Somehow the hammer had lost it's reset. I had to cycle the slide to get it running.
This is unacceptable, and it is the reason I currently have a P238 in my pocket.
The rare times I care the LCP, I check the hammer position regularly.
With the P238, I know that I will have to cock the hammer. No surprises.

So right now I'm compromised. I believe a carry pistol needs to be Double Action.
And no, a revolver is not for me. Even and LCR is a bigger lump than my P238, and holds fewer rounds.

What I really want, is a P238 in DA/SA.
In the meantime I'm going to look into the Diamondback.

Rex, You have probably seen this from Sig, but just in case.
http://www.sigsauer.com/CustomerService ... grade.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Under certain conditions, it may be possible for the lever not to be completely engaged in the safe position. In this condition, the gun will not fire when the trigger is pulled. However, when the safety lever is moved to the off position, the hammer may fall, with the remote possibility that the gun could fire unintentionally, thus creating a risk of injury or death.

[PeteCamp]

So does the Kahr have the same hammer reset issue that those other DAO pistols have?

I have searched several thousand posts on forums dedicated to these guns and have never seen anyone post this. Does anyone have a link to a first-hand account ? (not a, well I have a friend who said his ... )

In all fairness to the manufacturers, the American Rifleman article and many others declare the need for proper break-in on all of these guns. The only "mousegun" that did not have break-in problems was the $1000 Rohrbaugh.

[Mastodon]

My primary cw's are 9mm.
However, my j-frame 38 special is getting increasingly more carry time. Primarily due to weather (and thus my activity) changes; however, as I type it also is in use because I am with my wife visiting in-laws. Correct was the assumption of much hugging-in-greetings, bending/stooping to interact with young nephews/nieces, and just convenience of dropping in the pocket holster than using my usual IWB rig for my primary weapon.

It's just so convenient and concealable. With my range practice with the 38sp. snub and one reload in a speedstrip, I am quite comfortable with this weapon and caliber-capabilty until I return to more familiar daily environments and to carry my primary.

Love the j-frame.

Be safe.

[ScottDLS]

My opinion, which is worth what you paid for it...

A lot of the caliber wars on various forums are about what's a good "one shot stop" or effectiveness (or lack there of) of mouse gun calibers. For me, it's about whether a gun is too big for me to conveniently conceal and carry. I've had a CHL for 14 years and I haven't carried that much because I never could get comfortable concealing the larger heavier guns. I have a Ruger SP101 .357. Good size, but thick and heavy. I have some full size 9mm's and frankly properly concealing them in the summer would rub the skin off my torso, or they would be so hard to get to that I might as well not be carrying. I finally decided that when I can carry, I need a small, flat profile gun that I will actually carry as often as possible.

Because of the nature of my job, carrying "at work" is illegal under federal law about 80% of the time. Where it isn't, it requires deep concealment since I would almost surely be fired for carrying against my workplace policy. The good news is I work from home when I am not traveling or visiting my customers.

I have to wear a business suit or sport coat/wool slacks to work. Where I would be legal carrying, I would need the small flat profile gun to properly deep conceal. When I'm not at work, I'm wearing shorts or cargo pants and t-shirt. Sometimes jeans w/ no belt. I'm in and out of the house for lots of short trips to the supermarket/convenience store/shops, etc. I need a gun that I can drop in my pocket or put in small holster (I like 4-6 o'clock IWB) quickly and go about my day. If I have to strap on a "hog leg" and tactical harness every time I leave the house, well...I'm not gonna.

So, I recently bought Walther PPK/s .380. It's 7+1 and I can drop it in my pocket and go. It's better than the SIG P226 9mm with hydra-shocks that sits in my glove box all day because carrying it would make me look like the Hunchback of Notre Dame. If I was a cop and didn't give a darn about whether someone knew I was carrying, I'd put the SIG in a cross draw shoulder rig and put my badge on my belt at 1 o'clock or on a neck strap over my sport jacket.

For me the mouse gun I'm carrying is better than the Desert Eagle left in my gun safe.

[casingpoint]

the mouse gun I'm carrying is better than the Desert Eagle left in my gun safe

I don't like the tinny, junky feeling little things, but they do have their place in Americana. Across card tables, in pool halls, cheap motel rooms, dimly lit street corners, convenience stores. And for some reason, mouse guns are always associated with alcohol abuse:
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com/2009 ... a-meeting/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Rex B]

the mouse gun I'm carrying is better than the Desert Eagle left in my gun safe

I don't like the tinny, junky feeling little things, but they do have their place in Americana. Across card tables, in pool halls, cheap motel rooms, dimly lit street corners, convenience stores. And for some reason, mouse guns are always associated with alcohol abuse:
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com/2009 ... a-meeting/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Notice in the story, the intended victim used the cheapest, the mousiest of mouseguns for it's exact intended purpose, and it did the job.

;Nuff said