Half-life of an oral 30.06 notification

[A-R]

Another post put this thought in my brain, so bear with my while I regurgitate it into type:

Probably not a concrete answer on this, but opinion and non-legal legal analysis encouraged. If you can site case law or statutes, all the better.

If you're given an oral 30.06 notice that licensed concealed carry is not allowed in a premises, how long is that notice enforceable? Meaning, at what point - if ever - would you be OK to carry on those premises again?

One day?
One week?
One year?
Until you are told "it's OK to carry" (sort of like they flipped the light switch back to "on")
Until the ownership/management of that premises changes (for instance, it was a hippie fruit -n- nut shop that went out of business and now it's a hamburger joint .... or it was a a hippie fruit-n-nut shop owned by a gun-hating liberal and now it's a hippie fruit-n-nut shop owned by an open-minded gun-tolerant liberal)?
Never? That building has now become permanently off limits
Other?

With a posted 30.06 sign the answer seems simple ... no more sign, no more prohibition against concealed carry. But with an oral 30.06 notice, how long are we effectively banned?

[JNMAR]

Good question.

of course it's just my opinion but I consider the oral notification as sort of an immediate, one time, "get the gun out of here" type of thing and you Must remove it or you and it, immediately. Not too much different than if the sign's up today and gone tomorrow type of thing. I'm sure the owner/manager and LEO would see if differently but, if I was on the jury of such a trial, which I'm sure since I have a CHL will never happen, I would strongly propound my interpretation. I spoze I could at least hang the jury anyway.

[E.Marquez]

IANAL.. but for me,,, if it was the owner, I'd say it sticks until rescinded.

If it was an employee.....I'd not be concerned once that employee was no longer present.

[shootthesheet]

Until you are able to convince them to change their minds.

[ScottDLS]

Another post put this thought in my brain, so bear with my while I regurgitate it into type:

Probably not a concrete answer on this, but opinion and non-legal legal analysis encouraged. If you can site case law or statutes, all the better.

If you're given an oral 30.06 notice that licensed concealed carry is not allowed in a premises, how long is that notice enforceable? Meaning, at what point - if ever - would you be OK to carry on those premises again?

One day?
One week?
One year?
Until you are told "it's OK to carry" (sort of like they flipped the light switch back to "on")
Until the ownership/management of that premises changes (for instance, it was a hippie fruit -n- nut shop that went out of business and now it's a hamburger joint .... or it was a a hippie fruit-n-nut shop owned by a gun-hating liberal and now it's a hippie fruit-n-nut shop owned by an open-minded gun-tolerant liberal)?
Never? That building has now become permanently off limits
Other?

With a posted 30.06 sign the answer seems simple ... no more sign, no more prohibition against concealed carry. But with an oral 30.06 notice, how long are we effectively banned?

Good question! I doubt there have been many (or maybe any) cases around this, since it seems like there are very few 30.06 prosecutions since 1997 when the section came into being. So it's ripe for internet speculation...



- How long is the notice effective?
As long as prosecuting attorney can prove in court, to the standard for a criminal conviction, that you had received notice from someone authorized to act for the property owner at the time you committed the offense. So if the ownership changed, then I would assume that your prior notice would be invalid. You have no reason to believe that the prior notifier has authority to speak for the new owner, unless he/she tells you again after the ownership change. Just like if they took a sign down. You previously received notice from the sign, but the next time you come...no sign, no notice.

I'd even say this leads to an argument that an oral notification must occur each time. I'm not willing to be the (dreaded) "test case" on this. But, if you walk in a second time, in the absence of an oral notice, how do you know that its not NOW OK. Maybe they gave oral notice all the time under the previous ownership, but now they don't. Also could depend on the wording of the oral notice (which is not specified in the statute). "Hey, leave if you have a gun on you...". OK I left, but they didn't specify a time frame. Then I came back a week later. Different employee...didn't say anything to me. Maybe it's OK.

I don't want to get into a "how do you get off for breaking the law?" discussion, but I think it's fair to say that certain circumstances may make it unclear whether you violated the statute. That works in your favor in a criminal prosecution where the facts establishing the crime must be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt".

[chabouk]

Absent corroborating witnesses, an oral notice is worth exactly the paper it's printed on.

[Teamless]

How do they know they told you before.
In my mind, they must tell everyone, every time in order to be consistent.
If they don't, then my guess, iANAL, is it is only valid for each entry.

[jmra]

The whole oral notification thing is kinda goofy to begin with. The only way I see that it works is if somehow you are outted and you are told not to carry. In this case I don't think I would want to go back. Other than that the only way I can see someone getting an oral notification is if they asked if carry was ok. Don't ask don't tell.

I don't think there is enough info to answer the question. I think you have to role play a specific situation in order to come to any conclusion.

[A-R]

OK, role-playing a specific situation ...

Let's say you and your boss end up discussing guns over lunch. You're both "gun guys" and you find out that each of you have a CHL. He then says, "of course, you know that you cannot carry while at work".

We are talking strictly about the law here - can you go to jail? - not can they fire you. You have been given "effective notice" orally by someone with "apparent authority". And let's assume either 30.06 is NOT written anywhere (no signs, no employee handbooks) or if it is written it does not meet 30.06 written requirements (perhaps it merely states "employees may not possess weapons on company property" in the employee handbook).

1. What if the boss transfers to company headquarters in Poughkeepsie? Now you have a new boss here in Texas. Is 30.06 notice still "active" and enforceable?

2. What if the boss quits and takes a job with another company? Is 30.06 notice still "active"?

3. What if boss is fired? Is 30.06 still active?

4. What if the company is bought out by another company with new upper management but you and your boss survive the transition and both still have your same jobs when all the dust clears? Is 30.06 notice your boss gave as rep for the other company still active and enforceable?

Anyway, there is A LOT of gray area with an oral 30.06 notice especially when applied to a place you can't just avoid like a walk-in business with many competitors.

[A-R]

Different scenario (and more of a "who has apparent authority" question):

You're attending a wedding (or perhaps you're "in" the wedding, groomsman or whatever). The pastor who will be presiding over the ceremony knows you carry and says "you know you can't carry in the church right?" BUT the ceremony is not being held at the pastor's church. He is the groom's pastor, but the ceremony is held at the bride's church and that church's pastor hasn't said a thing to you nor has anyone else. No signs posted etc.

Have you been given effective notice?

[Keith B]

Different scenario (and more of a "who has apparent authority" question):

You're attending a wedding (or perhaps you're "in" the wedding, groomsman or whatever). The pastor who will be presiding over the ceremony knows you carry and says "you know you can't carry in the church right?" BUT the ceremony is not being held at the pastor's church. He is the groom's pastor, but the ceremony is held at the bride's church and that church's pastor hasn't said a thing to you nor has anyone else. No signs posted etc.

Have you been given effective notice?

If there is someone who has more authority at the time over the church than the pastor who is performing the ceremony, then no, you haven't been given notice. HOWEVER, if the pastor of that church has told the presiding pastor 'You are in charge because I won't be there', then IMO the reigns have been passed and the new pastor IS in charge and you HAVE been given oral notification and it is valid.

Edit to add: The first part of my post is assuming the pastor doing the ceremony has no authority at the church regularly. If he has been told by the staff that he can make decisions on behalf of the church, then even if someone there has more authority, you were still given effective notice.

[Keith B]

OK, role-playing a specific situation ...

Let's say you and your boss end up discussing guns over lunch. You're both "gun guys" and you find out that each of you have a CHL. He then says, "of course, you know that you cannot carry while at work".

We are talking strictly about the law here - can you go to jail? - not can they fire you. You have been given "effective notice" orally by someone with "apparent authority". And let's assume either 30.06 is NOT written anywhere (no signs, no employee handbooks) or if it is written it does not meet 30.06 written requirements (perhaps it merely states "employees may not possess weapons on company property" in the employee handbook).

1. What if the boss transfers to company headquarters in Poughkeepsie? Now you have a new boss here in Texas. Is 30.06 notice still "active" and enforceable?

2. What if the boss quits and takes a job with another company? Is 30.06 notice still "active"?

3. What if boss is fired? Is 30.06 still active?

4. What if the company is bought out by another company with new upper management but you and your boss survive the transition and both still have your same jobs when all the dust clears? Is 30.06 notice your boss gave as rep for the other company still active and enforceable?

Anyway, there is A LOT of gray area with an oral 30.06 notice especially when applied to a place you can't just avoid like a walk-in business with many competitors.

This is my opinion only: If the person who gave you oral notice had the authority to give it at the time they were there, then you have been given a valid notification and it is in affect until someone higher or now in authority rescinds the notification.

[A-R]

Lastly, to take the "you can still be fired" element out of the first scenario, let's say you're visiting a doctor's office. No 30.06 signs posted, not even a gun busters. It's a large group medical practice with many doctors. Your particular doctor discovers your concealed weapon during an exam. He says "I'd appreciate it if you don't bring that here anymore. We don't allow concealed handguns at this practice."

1. What if you change doctors (I know I would) but still see a doctor in the same practice? The original doctor still practices there?

2. What if that doctor leaves the practice and you continue to see another doctor at same practice?

3. What if the practice changes business names/management/ownership but the same doctor is still there but you don't see him anymore? Or may you do still see him but the facility is "under new management"?

4. What if it's the office manager who actually gives you the oral notice saying "Dr. Anti-Gun would appreciate it if you don't carry your gun here anymore. It's not allowed."

a) and the office manager leaves but the same doctor is still there and you're seeing a different doctor in same practice?
b) the doctor leaves but office manager is still there?
c) you change doctors but stay in same practice with same office manager?

...

OK, I'm already getting sick of all the gray areas and supposition that this "oral" notification element of 30.06 opens up and I'm just typing up scenarios off the top of my head. None of this has actually even hapened to me and I'm already confused and upset

[Keith B]

Lastly, to take the "you can still be fired" element out of the first scenario, let's say you're visiting a doctor's office. No 30.06 signs posted, not even a gun busters. It's a large group medical practice with many doctors. Your particular doctor discovers your concealed weapon during an exam. He says "I'd appreciate it if you don't bring that here anymore. We don't allow concealed handguns at this practice."

1. What if you change doctors (I know I would) but still see a doctor in the same practice? The original doctor still practices there?

2. What if that doctor leaves the practice and you continue to see another doctor at same practice?

3. What if the practice changes business names/management/ownership but the same doctor is still there but you don't see him anymore? Or may you do still see him but the facility is "under new management"?

4. What if it's the office manager who actually gives you the oral notice saying "Dr. Anti-Gun would appreciate it if you don't carry your gun here anymore. It's not allowed."

a) and the office manager leaves but the same doctor is still there and you're seeing a different doctor in same practice?
b) the doctor leaves but office manager is still there?
c) you change doctors but stay in same practice with same office manager?

...

OK, I'm already getting sick of all the gray areas and supposition that this "oral" notification element of 30.06 opens up and I'm just typing up scenarios off the top of my head. None of this has actually even happened to me and I'm already confused and upset

Same as my post above: You have been given proper notification for that location and until it is rescinded by someone in authority, it sticks. Bottom line, it is like the location now being posted with a sign, and until someone else takes that sign down, you are still required to adhere to the notice.

[A-R]

This is my opinion only: If the person who gave you oral notice had the authority to give it at the time they were there, then you have been given a valid notification and it is in affect until someone higher or now in authority rescinds the notification.

And that's the kind of overly broad interpretation of the statute that concerns me. Not saying you're wrong, your opinion is quite valid. Just concerns me that a one-time one-sentence notice could effectively disarm you for near-eternity in a particular premises.

I guess I hope that rather than the "someone higher or now in authority" having to specifically rescind the previous notification, that merely the change in authority would force the new authority to have to restate the 30.06 notice. I especially think this applies with actual change in the business or management (not just one person leaving, but the whole entity changing). Otherwise, it seems an unfair burden on me as a new business owner or new manager if I have to specifically rescind a notification given by a previous owner/manager that I may not even be aware of.

Remember, one of the most important reasons for the change in the law that now forces hospitals, churches etc to post 30.06 instead of being off-limits by statute is the owners/managers of such facilities who claimed that making those entities statutorily off-limits was removing their choice to run their premises how they see fit.

To take my logic a step further, let's say the previous owner of my home orally told everyone who entered "no guns allowed", by your interpretation as the new owner of this home I would have to specifically tell each of those people "go ahead and carry your guns again". That seems quite a burden on me as the new owner.