J-Frame Recommendations & Thoughts

[Afff_667]

I'm looking to pick up a S&W enclosed hammer J-frame pretty soon for a BUG and, most importantly, for those times when the primary CCW (G19 with Warren Tactical night sights in Milt Sparks VM2) just will not work. Carry mode for the snub nose will vary from pocket to OWB/IWB, and possibly to ankle depending upon circumstances, etc. I've looked at the 442/642 and am almost 100% sold but have a little voice in the back of my head whispering, "get .357, get .357" for the versatility it offers. I realize the 442/642 is rated for +P, but I like the idea of practicing with .38 Sp and carrying .357 Mag. The Model 640 is rapidly becoming a very strong contender due to its being all steel.

From my relatively inexperienced eye, it looks like the primary differences between the 642 and 640 are weight, of course, and grip length. Weight is something of an issue, but I think I can adequately address that with a good carry system. However, grip length related to concealability does concern me. I couldn't find a Model 640 to handle and look at this weekend, so I was hoping one of you could help me out.

Is the extra grip lenght of the Model 640 a deal breaker for pocket carry, and does it cause much of a concern when carrying the weapon in a holster, either OWB or IWB, on a belt. Ankle carry, while an interesting concept, probably doesn't play into my decision too much.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

[The Annoyed Man]

I actually pocket carry a 640, which I obtained in trade with another forum member for a 642 which I had. I own an ankle holster, but rarely use it because the weight, even of the 642, throws my stride off, and I already have stride issues related to back problems. If you plan to holster carry, I wouldn't even worry about the extra weight of a 640 over a 642. The former is heavier, but it is not as heavy as many other pistols (my 3" Kimber, for instance) and it still qualifies as a small, relatively light pistol.

Either pistol, IMHO, is a good carry choice for a snubbie. The 642 is more convenient to carry. It weighs about half the weight of the 640. I really enjoyed it. But the 642, even under range conditions, is much harder to shoot well. Even with regular pressure ammo, recoil is fairly stout because the pistol is so light, and I found that the trigger guard beat up the knuckle of my trigger finger pretty good when shooting it. +P ammo is worse yet. Also, the quality of the trigger pull on the 642 is not in the same league as on the 640, which actually has a pretty good double action trigger. The 640 trigger is smoother and lighter than the 642's.

Subjectively, shooting 110 grain .357 WWB (1295 fps, 410 ft lbs) out of the 640 is actually easier to shoot than 130 grain .38 Special WWB (800 fps, 185 ft lbs) out of the 642. Also, the guy who traded me the 640 also owns a 340, which is similar in size and weight and grip dimensions to the 642. He said that it is absolutely brutal to shoot, but he kept it because it is easier to carry. That is a rational decision on his part, but I was willing to add the extra weight in exchange for the massive power advantage of the .357, given that capacity is limited to 5 rounds in either pistol.

Anyway, that was my thinking. But if you do decide on one of the Airweight .38s, you'll enjoy it. They are all well-made pistols, and I liked mine. Heck, I might even buy another one down the road.

[A-R]

All the J-frames I've ever owned have been .38s. Just recently started carrying +P in them, so I'm coming at this from a different angle. For me the J-frame is almost exclusively a pocket pistol, though I do keep a cheap IWB holster for it handy just in case the need arises. The felt recoil on any Airweight or lighter J-frame is STOUT with any load. I don't detect a huge difference between standard and +P, but it is there. After years of shooting these, I've become proficient enough with them that I am considering using one for the CHL Instructor qualification (90% score needed, instead of 70%). I've done 248/250 or better with my J-frames numerous times during practice runs of of the CHL qualifying shot order and timing.

I've only fired a few .357 Mag loads in my life and all were from much larger K and L frame guns. I can't IMAGINE firing a full-house .357 load from a J-frame size pistol, even a 100% steel gun. Follow up shots would be problematic because I'd probably be looking for where the gun landed when it flew out of my hand on recoil ... OK, I'm exaggerating a bit.

As for the weight issue, I've carried both Airweight and 100% steel .38 J-frames and there is a noticeable difference, but it's not a deal-breaker if you wear the right pants. With a quality holster (Mika's is a good choice), the steel guns can be pocket carried all day long. But never as easily as the Airweights. With "dressy" pants with dainty little pockets, the Airweight is a much better choice. If you wear mainly jeans and other "manly" pants, a steel gun is fine with a good pocket holster.

The grip issue also depends on pocket size and personal preference. I've used both 3-finger and 4-finger grips for pocket carry and greatly prefer the 3-finger boot grips (the older-style Uncle Mike's or the Hogue Bantams). More often than I'd like, the 4-finger grips would snag on draw from pocket - not every time, not even a majority of the time, but enough to give me pause.

Anyway, my recommendation if you plan to pocket carry the majority of the time is to go with the newer +P rated .38 J-frames OR find a quality used steel .38 J-frame (our own Stephen Camp tells me all the older steel J-frames - at least those made in last 40 years or so - are OK for at least occasional +P use). The benefit, IMHO, of the older steel guns is the triggers are MUCH nicer than the newer guns. Don't know if this specifically has anything to do with it, but I've always found the J-frames with the firing pin on the hammer have much nicer triggers than the newer style with the firing pin housed inside the frame. Of course, this could be that all the pinned-hammer models I've fired have been used and the triggers well worn in.

[AEA]

I own a 642-1 and I range practice with .38 Spec and carry .38 Spec +P.

I have had a snub .357 Mag (Ruger SP-101) and I can tell you that shooting full house .357 Mag from such a short barreled revolver is brutal! I actually caused a problem with my wrist that took over a year to heal. That was with the heavier Ruger.

My opinion is that your ability to recover from the first shot and get back on target under stressful circumstances (such as a gunfight) will be severely limited due to the massive recoil of the .357 Mag in such a short barreled/lightweight revolver. I am talking about any greater distance than someone standing beside you.

I believe much more in the realistic capabilities of the +P round in these snubs for carry and that is why I chose the 642 with +P ammo.

[driver8]

I have a mod. 36 and if I had it to do over not only would I get stainless but I would get 3" instead of 2". It doesn't seem to make it that much bigger but the exttra inch adds to accuracy and velocity. .38's coming out of a 2" barrel is pretty sick and 3" has to be a little better. I bought this one new in 1975 for $109 and I didn't know better.

[A-R]

I have a mod. 36 and if I had it to do over not only would I get stainless but I would get 3" instead of 2". It doesn't seem to make it that much bigger but the exttra inch adds to accuracy and velocity. .38's coming out of a 2" barrel is pretty sick and 3" has to be a little better. I bought this one new in 1975 for $109 and I didn't know better.

I'll give you $165 for your Model 36 cash FTF anywhere in the state of Texas. That's a 50-percent return on your investment.

Deal?

[driver8]

Maybe in 1975 dollars huh. Anyway my daughter already has her eye on it. I have been thinkin about selling it while it is mint and gettin an auto to give to her. I gotta get educated about its value.

[yerasimos]

The Model 642 is $200 cheaper, easier to find, and lighter for easier pocket carry, and you can change the grips for optimum grip length and width. It should work well for "having a gun".

I see too little difference in weight and length between the Glock 19 (21-30 oz, 6.850") and the S&W model 640 (23 oz, 6.625") to seriously consider the latter in a BUG role.

I have read of one individual's experience with a model 640 where the frame cracked around the barrel's forcing cone; the piece was about a dozen years old, with ~1000 .38 Special cartridges and fifty magnum cartridges fired through it. He believed the root cause may have been some thread tolerance issues between the male threads on the barrel and the female threads in the frame (both frame and barrel were stainless steel). To S&W's credit, they sent him a replacement 640 free of charge.

[Excaliber]

I have a 642 that I sometimes carry as a "grab and go" pocket carry piece in very low threat circumstances (like walking the dog around the neighborhood) when gearing up with a gunbelt, holster, etc. is inconvenient.

I solved the recoil problem by changing out the skimpy grips that came with the gun for a larger and more robust hard rubber set. For my cargo shorts pocket or IWB carry modes, these don't compromise concealment but they sure make a difference in drawing and putting +P rounds where they need to go.

[Afff_667]

Thanks very much for the comments. After reading your comments, I went back over my reasons for wanting a J-frame and realized that going heavier to .357 and a 640 were inconsistent with my originally identified intent and goals, so I'll stick with the 442/642. Provided I do my part, approrpiate +P .38 Spec ammo will be adequate for what I need this particular weapon to do, and the capability to shoot .357 is not worth the weight and extra $200 or so for the 640.

Thanks again.

[A-R]

Provided I do my part, approrpiate +P .38 Spec ammo will be adequate for what I need this particular weapon to do

I've been very impressed with both the accuracy and expansion of Winchester Bonded PDX1 +P .38 Special from my 2-inch barrel J-frame. Speer Gold Dot ain't no slouch either.

[Dan20703]

I have the 642 filled with Remington 158 grain LSWCHP +P (FBI Load). I carry the gun often and the round is one of the most proven loads on the market. When you shoot this combo there a bit of snap to the recoil.

[A-R]

I have the 642 filled with Remington 158 grain LSWCHP +P (FBI Load). I carry the gun often and the round is one of the most proven loads on the market. When you shoot this combo there a bit of snap to the recoil.

Dan, where do you buy those? Heard great things. Never actually seen them for sale anywhere, even overpriced at gun shows.

[Ldy AlliDu]

Please educate me, I have 158gr, 130gr, 95gr with silvertip,
what should I use for practice, I don't need any more pains and aches, maybe there is some 50gr
TIA

[USA1]

Thanks very much for the comments. After reading your comments, I went back over my reasons for wanting a J-frame and realized that going heavier to .357 and a 640 were inconsistent with my originally identified intent and goals, so I'll stick with the 442/642. Provided I do my part, approrpiate +P .38 Spec ammo will be adequate for what I need this particular weapon to do, and the capability to shoot .357 is not worth the weight and extra $200 or so for the 640.

Thanks again.

Good choice. My 642 is my constant companion.
I think you'll be pleased with going the "lighter" route if you plan on toting that gun all day, every day.