Yet another situational question

[pbwalker]

Not looking to judge anyone or anything, and I am not saying what I would do...but from a legal standpoint, what about...

http://www.woai.com/news/local/story/Po ... Bro_g.cspx

SAN ANTONIO -- Police are searching for a man they say shot his girlfriend.

The shooting happened early Sunday morning at a home on Lasses, near Southeast Military Drive and Goliad Road on the Southeast Side.

Neighbors reportedly heard the couple fighting and then heard a gunshot.

"As they went outside to check on the victim, they saw the suspect outside standing over the victim holding a gun," explained Officer Matt Porter of the San Antonio Police Department.

The man reportedly threatened the neighbors, then took off.

The girlfriend, Virgina Balderas, was hit once in the chest. She was taken to Brooke Army Medical Center and is said to be in "fair" condition.

Once arrested, police said the boyfriend will be charged with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon.

What if you, as the neighbor in this article, were to walk out and see this guy standing over this girl...from a legal standpoint, if you were to grab the AR you keep by your door and exterminate this goblin, would you face any charges?

I know a CHL (which is not even relevant in this instance) is not a badge. We are not the police (you won't find anyone who agrees with that more than I do).

But from a legal standpoint, if you were to dispatch of this varmint, are you going to jail?

[Purplehood]

I don't think that there would be any hesitation. Unfortunately I as a witness would probably not be thinking to myself "what is going on here that I don't see?", but would probably attempt to drop the guy than and there. I would have no problem standing in front of a grand jury.

[Keith B]

I don't know. Walking out and just seeing someone over another person holding a handgun doesn't meant they are the aggressor. It could be that person was a CHL and just defended themselves and are standing over the aggressor making sure they don't move until the police show up. They would be no threat to you and if you shoot them, then you just committed manslaughter.

[Excaliber]

Not looking to judge anyone or anything, and I am not saying what I would do...but from a legal standpoint, what about...

http://www.woai.com/news/local/story/Po ... Bro_g.cspx

SAN ANTONIO -- Police are searching for a man they say shot his girlfriend.

The shooting happened early Sunday morning at a home on Lasses, near Southeast Military Drive and Goliad Road on the Southeast Side.

Neighbors reportedly heard the couple fighting and then heard a gunshot.

"As they went outside to check on the victim, they saw the suspect outside standing over the victim holding a gun," explained Officer Matt Porter of the San Antonio Police Department.

The man reportedly threatened the neighbors, then took off.

The girlfriend, Virgina Balderas, was hit once in the chest. She was taken to Brooke Army Medical Center and is said to be in "fair" condition.

Once arrested, police said the boyfriend will be charged with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon.

What if you, as the neighbor in this article, were to walk out and see this guy standing over this girl...from a legal standpoint, if you were to grab the AR you keep by your door and exterminate this goblin, would you face any charges?

I know a CHL (which is not even relevant in this instance) is not a badge. We are not the police (you won't find anyone who agrees with that more than I do).

But from a legal standpoint, if you were to dispatch of this varmint, are you going to jail?

My first question to you would be: If you didn't witness the incident, how do you know you're not looking at another CHL or off duty LEO who just ran the real bad guy off and is now trying to fight through the mental fog that comes with a life threatening encounter and figure out what to do next to render aid to the victim?

My second question would be: Is deadly force the only way to prevent the presumed offender from killing or seriously injuring someone at that point. Non LEO's (and even LEO's for that matter) have no authority to exact retribution for past acts, however heinous they might be.

There are no easy answers, and even very similar situations have variables that can make the difference between a no bill and a long jail term.

Here's the short take: If you can find solid justification for use of deadly force that matches the situation you described in Section 9 of the TX Penal Code you may not go to jail. If you can't find that justification and use deadly force anyway, you'll be in deep kimchee regardless of what the offender had done earlier.

The question to ask yourself first is not: Can I take this guy's life now and be seen as a hero?

The one you need to ask is:

Is using deadly force the only reasonable way to preserve innocent life in that circumstance?

[jimlongley]

I think back to an incident we used to use as an example in our classes for the NY State Pistol Permit.

You are enjoying a quiet evening at home and you hear an altercation from across the street. You just barely know these neighbors well enough to say hello, but you do know that the couple and his mother in law live in constant tension, so the yelling and screaming is not a big surprise, and then suddenly you hear what sounds a lot like a gunshot as something heavy hits the floor and furniture smashes.

Just for "safety's sake" you grab your (legal) carry gun and rush out to your front porch, where you see the husband run out the front door and down the street closely followed by the harridan mother in law who is screaming at the top of her lungs: "You killed her, you murderer!, Help, Police, someone call the police . . ."

And the question is what do you do.

The answer, every time, is become the best witness that you can, because you have no idea what went down that you heard.

In the real life situation this was based on, the guy had an argument with the mother in law, the wife was at work. He decided to defuse the situation by leaving, and in grabbing his jacket he tipped over a floor lamp near the door. Grabbing for the lamp he failed to catch it, and the bulb exploded, at the same time as he knocked over the mother in law's fish bowl with her beloved goldfish, slicing it in half in the wreckage. He departed as rapidly as possible and the end result is what you just witnessed.

It would not really be advisable to shoot him down as he ran.

-------------------------------------

So you see the guy standing over the girlfriend with a gun in his hand. How do you know that she didn't shoot it at him, or someone else, and then knock her down in the process of taking it way? And then he panics because he knows what it will look like and runs away.

Even if you saw that she was injured, you don't know that it was not self inflicted with him taking the gun away after the fact.

[TexDotCom]

Furthermore, though I understand Purplehood's line of thinking...that same line of thinking might, in this hypothetical, cause me to lose my life after just successfully defending it! Please don't take offense, Purplehood, as none is intended. I served in the sandbox for a year w/ the US Army and know that I'd likely have similar thoughts as you. Hopefully we both learned ways to ensure we have the whole story before acting, though.

[TexDotCom]

Is using deadly force the only reasonable way to preserve innocent life in that circumstance?

Or even...which is the innocent and is preservation still even a necessity?

[Oldgringo]

I dunno'.

I might pull my gun and ask him to drop his. If he raised his weapon to fire at me I would have to act in self defense. OTOH, I just might call 911 and be a good witness until threatened. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't light him up without severe provocation; afterall, for all I know he shot her in self defense. I try not to hang around residential areas where people beat up on, and/or shoot, each other.

Who knows, what do you think you would do?

EDIT:

excaliber, Jim Longely and Keith B hit their "SEND" button while I was in the bathroom. They are all correct. Good job, men.

[pbwalker]

Who knows, what do you think you would do?

Now that we've had enough responses and they seem to be inline with what I was thinking, I'll offer up my thoughts...

Like it was mentioned, you have no idea who is the criminal. It could be a CHLer standing over a robber (though I would never do that...)

I'm playing the good, armed witness in this instance. But if this poor soul threatens me to get back in the house and points his weapon at me, game over.

Taking a page from boomerang, I'm going with the "It depends".

Now, if I saw the perp shoot the victim and is standing over him/her as if to execute them, then it's a different scenario.

jimlongley - that's a great write-up! thanks for sharing!

[C-dub]

If I were to challenge the person, it would definitely be from cover. I sure wouldn't stand out in the open in case the person did turn on me. There are so many possibilities that it's just dizzying.

[A-R]

This is a good what-if scenario. It also shows not only how difficult such a scenario can be in the unlikely event one of us happens upon it, but think how much more difficult it is for an LEO who has a duty to intervene in such situations and not just "be a good witness".

That's why I to all the good LEOs out there.

To answer the OP's question, I agree with above post about staying behind cover and perhaps - with my gun trained on the other guy - tell him "STOP! DROP THE GUN THEN DO NOT MOVE!" .... but definitey don't stand in open (what if he has accomplices?) .... might even just be the "good witness" too, but my conscious would really weigh heavily on me if I chose that route and the guy unloaded a mag into the fallen victim after I had a chance to possibly stop it.

[Purplehood]

Nope. I still stand by my assertion. "The man threatened the neighbors".

Than again, I am sitting at my desk at work drinking a cup of coffee. I don't REALLY know what I would do at that particular time, until it happens to me.

[silverbear]

The discussion in this thread and other like this one is the real value of this forum. Thanks to all who contribute in hashing out these real world situations for the benefit of all.