What makes a Kimber worth the cost?

[speepdaedeesi]

i have been reading a TON into 1911s lately. i can say from my research i have learned alot about the different brand names, models, and problems people have had with each.

i think for those looking to get into a 1911, theres a certain feeling of "safety" with going with a high end pistol over a lesser brand. this is true in marketing all across the board as consumers. we assume if we pay more, we will get a better product.

example, dawoo vs. kia. a study was done a few years back, and people were willing to pay more for a dawoo vs a kia, just because the name dawoo sounded like a more expensive brand. truth was kia was the better product at the time. its all about badge/brand engineering. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badge_engineering" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . so perfect example in the gun world, bringing it back to rai... is armscor. they made 3 different 1911s, all at 3 different prices. they made the armscor, rock island armory 1911, and the charles daly hi power. all essentially the same gun, with different badging. and 3 different prices. this is the complete dead other side of the price spectrum than kimber, which is why i bring them up.

now im not saying a kimber is just a rebranded armscor. im saying a 1911 in general is a 1911. yes kimbers are "supposed" to have a better fit and finish, and that the main arguement for most as to why they cost more. but as already mentioned its becoming less and less the case as the quality control goes down, paralell with the customer care going down as well.

every manufacturer out there has issues. guns, cars, etc. theres always going to be hiccups in the assembly line. its how the company handles them that will set them apart from their piers... ahem... toyota lol.

so as it will be said over and over, its all about wether or not it fits your hand, goes bang every time, and conceals well for you. if it doesnt meet those three, then its not for you. if it does, once you get to carrying/shooting it, you move up from there.

there are plenty of people out there that carry hi point pistols on a daily basis. we are talking about 120 dollar pistols here, and people like you and me trust their lives to them. why? their particular pistol fits their hand, budget, and goes bang every time for them. thats really all its about.

personally, i am having a hard time choosing my first 1911. im really leaning towards an ria. their customer service is out of this world, and with the price i could get a compact 45, and a compact 9mm, and still be under the price of one kimber.

but to sum it all up, why is kimber more? you get everything you want, in one shot. it already has all the goodies, from the factory. and the fit and finish SHOULD be better than those of a lesser price. but as you can find for yourself, just by a quick google search, its not always the case with kimber, just like its not always the case with the escalade.

[Jim Lockey]

A lot of good honest ansers. That a way to go guys.

[Texas Size 11]

We have 2 1911s from Kimber, a Springfield, a Taurus, and an old Ithaca 1911 from WW2. The trouble is, none are in exactly the same configuration as one of the others. The two closest are my 5" Springfield Loaded and my son's 5" Taurus PT1911. Of those two, the Springfield is the better pistol, but the Taurus is still a very good pistol. That said, although I bought the Springfield used, and paid less for it than we did for the Taurus, I think its MSRP was about $150 higher.

The two Kimbers are a 4" and 3" models. One is a Pro Raptor, the other an Ultra Carry, so they are not only different in configuration, but in materials too. The Kimbers are tighter and rattle less than the other guns, and both come with a match bull barrel and are very accurate. I do think they are better made than the other brands; but are they $200-$300 better? I don't know.

Curious about the Taurus...I am thinking about purchasing a 1911 on the less expensive end to see how I like them and was thinking about the Taurus. Worth the price?

[The Annoyed Man]

I would do a lot of research before you put down that much for a Kimber. I don't own one but I was looking real seriously at them and I have been scared off by what I have been reading. I know their reputation for quality but recently you don't have to dig too deep to find a lot of people having problems. If you are going to pay a premium price for something it needs to be a premium product. It happened to Colt , it happened to Toyota, it might be happening to Kimber. They wouldn't be the first to let their quantity get ahead of their quality. I am not saying they are not still the best one, they may be. I am leaning toward the Springfield.

You're going to hear horror stories like that about every high end brand made. The reason? People expect a gun to never have a hiccup when they pay $1,000 for it. Well, to some extent, they are correct. But on the other hand, guns often need to be broken in a bit, and their reliability improves significantly after running a few hundred rounds through them - even good guns sometimes need this. Also, 1911s are susceptible to problems caused by using cheap or poorly made magazines, or by limp-wristing. In a sense, they are high precision guns; and just as a high performance car will expose your bad driving driving habits as it reacts to every little input you give it, so does a 1911. So if you've got poor shooting habits, a 1911 will betray you. But, also like a high performance car, if you use proper technique and maintain the gun well, it will make you look like a champ.

I have a 5" Springfield Loaded Parkerized. It is a fine gun. It is accurate, and it is reliable; and I like it very much. It is not in the same league as either of my Kimbers. It took a trigger job on the Springfield to give it the same quality of trigger that the Kimbers had right out of the box. Now, maybe the high end of the Springfield line might be comparable to the Kimbers, but then you're talking about the same price range as the Kimbers too.

[glbedd53]

It might be too much to ask to never have a hiccup in even a high end guns reliability. May not be too much to ask to never have a hiccup in their customer service. If their quality is having some temporary issues customer service is where they need to compensate for it. I had a problem with some Crimson Trace laser grips once. They sent me a new pair before I even sent the old ones back. They paid shipping both ways, in fact sent me the package to send them back. Crimson Trace is not a cheap product either. They bent over backwards to make it right. It's not hard to figure out that will make the difference whether I buy their product again. A Kimber is something I've wanted for a long time and still do but I ain't buying one yet. I understand you can read something bad about almost anything. I also understand where there's smoke there's fire.

[The Annoyed Man]

We have 2 1911s from Kimber, a Springfield, a Taurus, and an old Ithaca 1911 from WW2. The trouble is, none are in exactly the same configuration as one of the others. The two closest are my 5" Springfield Loaded and my son's 5" Taurus PT1911. Of those two, the Springfield is the better pistol, but the Taurus is still a very good pistol. That said, although I bought the Springfield used, and paid less for it than we did for the Taurus, I think its MSRP was about $150 higher.

The two Kimbers are a 4" and 3" models. One is a Pro Raptor, the other an Ultra Carry, so they are not only different in configuration, but in materials too. The Kimbers are tighter and rattle less than the other guns, and both come with a match bull barrel and are very accurate. I do think they are better made than the other brands; but are they $200-$300 better? I don't know.

Curious about the Taurus...I am thinking about purchasing a 1911 on the less expensive end to see how I like them and was thinking about the Taurus. Worth the price?

I would say yes, they are. As I recall, we paid about $699 for ours back when, which put it at the time in the in-between range price-wise between Springfields on one hand, and RIAs on the other. I think you can find them for less today. Ours is an all steel model with a rail (PT1911 AR), so it isn't light. It has a set of Heinie type "straight eight" sights, which my son likes very much, but me not so much. The trigger is pretty good but not perfect. It breaks crisply at 4.5 lbs, but it has a tiny bit of creep in it. It's my son's gun. He shoots it very well. The day after we picked it up, we went to the Bass Pro indoor range, and he flat wore out the bullseyes on his targets, at all distances. In fact, a pair of off-duty cops who were there stopped shooting to watch and admire his work.

It has had a couple of fairly minor issues in the time since we bought it about 2.5 years ago. The first is that, for a while, the left-hand side of the thumb safety (right side of the frame) would gradually back out during range sessions. A few raps with a nylon dowel and a small hammer would push it back in. Eventually it stopped doing that. The other thing (and I've posted this story a number of times here) is that during one range session the slide-stop pin broke right in half at the barrel link. It was a MIM part, and it just failed, at maybe 1,000 rounds or so. As it happens, I had a spare part from my stainless steel Kimber in the Kimber's case, and it dropped right in, and we kept on shooting. That was a couple of years ago, and it is still in that gun. The reason I had a spare part was that a few Stainless Ultra Carry II Kimbers were shipped with a slightly malformed slide stop lever/pin, and mine was one of them. What it was doing was causing the slide to repeatedly lock back on a still loaded magazine, and it was on my first trip to the range with it. I phoned Kimber about it when the problem was discovered, and they shipped me another one chop chop. I got it a few days later, and the gun has run flawlessly ever since. I held onto the "defective" part because, well... just because. That "defective" part dropped right into the Taurus, and it has continued to function perfectly ever since, to the tune of probably around 2,000 rounds. What that tells me is that the Kimber is manufactured to much tighter tolerances, and is therefore less tolerant of parts that are not perfectly shaped; whereas the Taurus is not made to the same tolerances, and so the part, which was out of spec by Kimber standards, was perfectly fine by Taurus standards.

I wouldn't mind owning a Taurus for myself down the road, but first I would like to acquire a 4" alloy framed 1911 to add to my carry rotation. I haven't decided what brand yet, but it won't be a Taurus, because as far as I know, they only make full sized guns, and none are alloy framed. But there is a high probability that it will be a Kimber because I have had nothing but good experiences with mine - that one "defective" part nothwithstanding. When I get that alloy 4" gun, I'll retire my 5" Springfield to range duty, because it is heavy.

[The Annoyed Man]

I also understand where there's smoke there's fire.

Kinda depends on who is blowing the smoke.

But if you're correct, then the truth is that most gun manufacturers would fail the test... ...not so much because they have poor service, but more because most satisfied customers don't speak up, while unsatisfied customers do speak up. Thus, you tend only to hear the horror stories, which are probably more typically way outnumbered by the silently satisfied. I say this because:

1. I have heard horror stories about S&W service. My experience was the exact opposite. I sent a M&P 45 back to them for repair. I screwed the gun up by trying to do a trigger job on it. I was initially told that they could fix it, but that I would have to pay for it because my actions had voided the warranty. It was my fault, so I was Ok with that and didn't argue with them about it. What actually happened though is that they not only didn't charge me, but they also did the work in the Custom Shop, under warranty, and the pistol came back to me with a competition trigger job, with the warranty still intact, and I got it back 2 weeks sooner than I expected it, and they paid for the return freight.
2. I have heard horror stories about Springfield Armory's customer service. My experience was the exact opposite. I bought an M1A Loaded, and at right around the 100 round mark, one of the hammer feet snapped off. It was a MIM part. I was wanting to take it on a hog hunt, and so I was in a hurry to get it repaired. They had me ship the fire control group back to them 2nd day air (they paid the freight both ways). I asked if it was possible to replace the hammer with a forged part instead of a MIM part. They said no problem. I got the fire control group back from them 8 days after I shipped it to them.
3. I have heard horror stories about Kimber's customer service. My experience was the exact opposite, as described in my previous post. There was no argument from them. In fact, what I got was a humble acknowledgment that the problem existed, an apology for the inconvenience that it caused me, and they sent me the replacement part at no charge. I had the part in my hand 3 or 4 days after making the phone call.

So, when I hear stories about one high end manufacturer or another having poor customer service, I tend to be skeptical of it because my own personal experience is the exact opposite.

[G.A. Heath]

So, when I hear stories about one high end manufacturer or another having poor customer service, I tend to be skeptical of it because my own personal experience is the exact opposite.

I haven't had much experience with customer service reps from any firearm related manufacturer, but what few I have had have been top notch except for one company that makes custom grips and that experience was beyond perfect (refund on the defective product in the same package as a replacement set and their apologies).

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

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All of this helped the performance of the weapon and the funtionality. Not to mention it made it look a lot sexier

The parts that were added helped the gun fit better in my hand and more shooter friendly. With that and the work I gained more accuracy and a top notch 1911 that has yet to fail me.

[CompVest]

So, when I hear stories about one high end manufacturer or another having poor customer service, I tend to be skeptical of it because my own personal experience is the exact opposite.

I believe the way the customer communicates with customer service makes a difference to the quality of service. Obviously not every time but I found honesty and courtesy gets great service.

[JNMAR]

I believe the way the customer communicates with customer service makes a difference to the quality of service. Obviously not every time but I found honesty and courtesy gets great service.

absolutely makes a huge difference IMO

[The Annoyed Man]

So, when I hear stories about one high end manufacturer or another having poor customer service, I tend to be skeptical of it because my own personal experience is the exact opposite.

I believe the way the customer communicates with customer service makes a difference to the quality of service. Obviously not every time but I found honesty and courtesy gets great service.

I agree, and I think that the reason some people have a bad customer service experience can be traced to their own state of mind when they make that phone call. They are justifiably either angry or upset, and they vent on the person who answers the phone on the other end. Well, that person is just doing their job, and if the caller has been in any way abusive, they are not going to be inclined to be helpful. They may want to be helpful, but they have to work within the company's constraints. And by the way, I am not perfect in this regard myself.

In my interactions with Springfield's customer service over that M1A, I was pretty hot under the collar. I had just spent over $1,700 for a new rifle (not counting the cost of scope, mount, and rings), and it broke with under 100 rounds down the barrel. Furthermore, it broke not long before I intended to go on a hunting trip with it, so I was pretty upset when I called. I didn't yell or curse, but I was prepared with a list of "demands" when I called, and my tone of voice conveyed anger. I expected them to send me a new fire control group right away, etc., etc., etc. After I stopped ranting long enough for the CS rep to get a word in edgewise, he explained that he would gladly send me a new fire control group, but that he would have to charge me for it (I don't remember the exact price, but it was on the order of $200 or so). My head gasket survived the additional strain long enough for me to ask why, and he explained that their procedure is to warranty the hammer, not the entire fire control group, and that unless I had some specialized armorer's tools, I would be unable to swap out the parts myself. Furthermore, even if I had the tools, doing the work myself would void the warranty. That's why it would be necessary for me to send them the fire control group to replace the hammer. Plus, they would pay for the 2nd day air freight both ways and he promised to personally track the case and see that a high priority was attached to the repair when they received my package.

Well, I was pretty hot under the collar, but I'm not a complete idiot. I realized that doing it their way was better, and that my best interests would be better served by cooperating with their policy instead of insisting on being a wrong headed fool. After all, what was my goal? Being "right," or getting my rifle fixed as fast as possible at no cost to me? My customer service experience turned out well because I was able to see past my own anger and disappointment to realize that their way of doing things really was the better way. For me. Springfield's CS rep took what I was making into a bad experience, and turned it into a good experience with the best possible outcome. I can't say enough about the way they took care of me.

I suspect that a lot of people (but not all) who call customer service with a bone to pick, like I did, but still end up having a bad interaction with the CS rep, are at least partly responsible themselves for the quality of that experience because they let "being right" get in the way of fixing their problem the most efficient way possible. Their need to punish supersedes their need to fix the problem.

So getting back to the subject at hand, to the OP, when you are considering a high end 1911, I would take essentially unverified reports of Acme 1911 and Widget Corporation's poor customer service with a grain of salt and disregard them in making your decision.

[KFP]

If you can make it to Seminole (North of Andrews Texas on US385) I would let you shoot one of mine.

That's a nice and gentlemanly invite. For those of you who might be thinkin' about takin' G.A. up on his magnanimous offer, Seminole is about 623,000 miles from anywhere except Hobbs, NM.

I've got a group of patients that come from Seminole every year...I'm starting to wonder if I know G.A....

[J Wilson]

CompVest wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
So, when I hear stories about one high end manufacturer or another having poor customer service, I tend to be skeptical of it because my own personal experience is the exact opposite.
I believe the way the customer communicates with customer service makes a difference to the quality of service. Obviously not every time but I found honesty and courtesy gets great service.

I spent a few years in customer service in the printing trade.Nobody ever calls an says what a great job Ya'll did.The fastest way to shut a chapped customer up is to remain calm and ask"What can we do to make you happy"Most people are so wrapped up in their rant that they can't answer the question.
On the original question:I own a Kimber,a tricked out Colt Officer's Model,and a Clark Custom LW Colt Commander.They are all worth every penny I paid for them,But the Kimber comes out of the box with everything you will probably do to a .45.

[G.A. Heath]

I don't do much as a patient, but who knows.