CT grip laser vs night sights

[texasjeep44]

I would save the money and buy neither the night sights or the CT laser, and spend the money on ammo and range time to get better acquanted with your gun and how it points/shoots.

With the proper time and training you should have no problems going out to 45/50 feet and hitting your target without even using sights, beyond that if you practice some more. That gets you well within the normal self defense situation ranges.

If you can point shoot properly, you should have no problem in hitting your target once you identify they are a threat in low light situations. If you can't identify the threat clearly you might not need to shoot it regardless of lighting.

[G.A. Heath]

In low light conditions You can identify your target but your sights might blend into the target if it is a dark color, this is where night sights and laser aiming devices come into their own. Night sights can also serve to help locate a dropped weapon. Laser aiming devices also make great training aids during dry fire practice (Watch the dot as you pull the trigger). At one time I was apposed to both seeing them as being useless, but after trying them out and using them during low light practice I am now a believer in using both systems.

[b322da]

To me, the problem of accuracy with a laser sight is that it is very difficult to adjust the red dot to point of impact with any degree of accuracy - even though the units (at least, the good ones) are adjustable for windage and elevation - without something like a Ransom Rest to hold the pistol in a locked down position while zeroing the dot.

Even with lots of practice and good muscle memory, my arms and hands move around just the tiniest bit when I'm lining up the iron sights, and consequently, the sight picture moves around also. Pretty much anybody who is honest about it will admit the same. So when you're sighting the gun with the irons and trying to get the red dot to line up so that you know your red dot is zeroed at a known distance and "cowitnessing" with your iron sights, that dot is also moving around against the only unmoving fixed object - your target.

What that means is that you cannot be absolutely certain that the laser dot on the paper is where the bullet is actually going to go, unless you have the means of locking the gun down in a rest of some kind at the range so that your adjustment shots are absolutely repeatable until you have the bullets impacting as close to on top of the red dot as the inherent accuracy of that particular pistol will permit.

Now, maybe I'm obsessing, and the truth is that, within 7 yards, if the dot is on the center of mass, the bullet is going to hit somewhere in the center of mass. Like that video demonstrated with the guy on his back on the ground, putting the red dot on the bad guy standing over him is good enough.

But what if your target bad guy is partially behind cover and only partially exposed? Will you still have the confidence that your bullet is going to go where the red dot is? What if the target bad guy is partially hidden behind your wife whom he's holding hostage? Will you still have confidence that you can hit him using the red dot, if you haven't taken the time and effort to actually verify by means of a Ransom Rest? What if you've gotten lazy at the range and acquired the habit of relying on the laser for accuracy instead of your iron sights, and your battery goes down in an actual shooting scenario?

The analogous thing for me is my EOTech sight on my AR carbine. I love me some EOTech, and I use it at the range. BUT... I also practice with the irons, and I know that, at the known ranges of 25 yards and 250 yards, my iron sights will put the bullet in the same place as the EOTech's red dot will, within the accuracy limitations inherent in that particular rifle. And I can be certain of this because I have verified it from the bench.

If you're going to rely on a laser sight, you should do the same.

AM,

Once again hoping to not outwear my so far pleasant welcome to this forum, I am jumping into the briar patch.

If a shooter keeps his eye, or eyes, open when his trigger pressure fires the gun, he will see exactly where the red dot was when it fired. This is not easy for most people. It is contrary to an overwhelming natural reaction of your body.

It doen't matter where the red dot was. That is, it need not be in the (x) ring. It can, at the time, be in the upper right hand corner of the target. Even then he will know precisely how the POI differs from the POA, and an appropriate adjustment can be made to the laser for windage and/or elevation.

After many untold years of shooting and instruction I have satisfied myself, I stress "myself," that the inability of a shooter to keep that eye open is probably the worst and, at the same time, the most common deficiency preventing repetitive expert marksmanship. If that eye is not open the shooter has not the slightest clue were the red dot actually was when the handgun fired. He may think he did, but I can guarantee you that he did not. This is, in my opinion, true both as to lasers and iron sights.

Next in order I, in my personal opinion, rank trigger control. Yet, if one jerks the trigger and jerks the red dot off its intended POA, if his eye is open when the weapon fires he will still see where the red dot was at the time.

I think that one of the great utilities of the laser is its ability to help one with his trigger control. When your target and your sight picture are at the same distance from your eye, which of course can only focus at any one distance at any one time, one can see what happens to the dot when his increasing pressure on the trigger fires the handgun. (Focusing at that distance with iron sights is of course a fundamental no-no).

Once you detect a pattern in what happens to the laser sight picture you are well on your way to making corrections, be it to the application of trigger pressure, the direction of your trigger pressure (straight back, to the side, up or down), grip, stance, or whatever.

I would submit that you do not need a Ransom or any other type of rest to get your laser adjusted correctly. In my case I make a first cut at home on the wall, which at much less cost than wasting ammo, gets my red dot to coincide with a perfect iron sight picture. Then when I get to the range I fine-tune the alignment, which, of course, will only be necessary if my iron sights are off. If adjustable the iron sights should have been adjusted for the appropriate range before starting with laser adjustment.

As I fine-tune the laser adjustment at the range, if it proves to be necessary, I usually set my hands on the bench, to eliminate at least most of the wobble inherent in most shooters. Of course I do not have to see the iron sights to find-tune the laser.

This may sound complicated, but it is really not. I have four CT-affixed handguns, all of which I rotate as my CCW. I would estimate that 90% of my laser adjustments were made on the kitchen wall when the Better Half was away at the grocery store.

Bottom line: if one keeps the eye(s) open and exercises good trigger control, laser adjustment is a snap. If one does not, he possibly will never get the laser adjusted.

[The Annoyed Man]

Actually, sighting in the red dot isn't hard if you really want to.

I bought a 9mm laser boresight. When I dropped it in my P239, it confirmed that my CT lasergrip was dead on at about 7 yards. Close enough for me.

Well that's a good answer, and it answers the question for me.

[G26ster]

I would estimate that 90% of my laser adjustments were made on the kitchen wall when the Better Half was away at the grocery store.

Bottom line: if one keeps the eye(s) open and exercises good trigger control, laser adjustment is a snap. If one does not, he possibly will never get the laser adjusted.

[The Annoyed Man]

Once again hoping to not outwear my so far pleasant welcome to this forum, I am jumping into the briar patch.

There's no briar patch here, and I welcome any explanation which can get through my skull what my own observations and proclivities cannot. For my own part, I tend to shoot pistols with both eyes open, although it does require a conscious effort on my part. With my EOTech on my carbine, both eyes wide open is easy and comes fairly naturally. On pistols, I have to consciously resist the effort to squint my off eye. This is aggravated by my gradually deteriorating eyesight - not to disease or anything; I'm just getting older is all. But I agree that good trigger control is a major component of accuracy, and I try to practice it myself.

Actually, what Pawpaw1 said (above) makes the most sense to me, as my shooting habits are relatively good. Even so, there's always room for improvement.

Edited to add: Also, my primary experience with a CT laser is with my wife's 642, which admittedly is much harder to shoot accurately than one of my 1911s because of the 642's long and relatively heavy trigger. Maybe if I had a CT laser mounted on one of my 1911s, I might have had a completely different visceral reaction to them.

[b322da]

I would estimate that 90% of my laser adjustments were made on the kitchen wall when the Better Half was away at the grocery store.

Bottom line: if one keeps the eye(s) open and exercises good trigger control, laser adjustment is a snap. If one does not, he possibly will never get the laser adjusted.

Something I forgot, G26ster, and I am confident you would agree here too.

After laser adjustment, when using the laser to correct errors in trigger control it is also not necessary to waste ammo if one keeps his eyes open (and has overcome anticipation, really the same thing) when the hammer falls while dry firing. This can also be done at home, if you can get a kitchen pass.

Here, as well as at the range (but cheaper and easier), once again you see how the laser strayed off "dead center" when you "fired."

Once again, of course, your iron sights must be adjusted first, if possible. On most of my CWs they are not adjustable, but the Kentucky windage I am well familiar with also works in this operation.

I rank the laser as worth every penny just to correct errors in my trigger control and other shooting elements. Without ever firing a round.

[b322da]

For my own part, I tend to shoot pistols with both eyes open, although it does require a conscious effort on my part.

You are well ahead of the game then, AM. My experience is that both eyes open is rarely the case.

A world-class shooter would likely tell you that both eyes open is the ideal. One of the undefinable things this shooter must do is eliminate all distractions, and be focused on but one thing. Holding the weak eye shut requires the use of muscle power which can be one of those unconscious distractions.

To show yourself just one element of keeping both eyes open, look at a sight picture with them both open, then force the weak eye closed. It is almost certain that your strong eye will be affected, slightly close, and reduce your effective vision. We old guys like you and me need every advantage we can get. Right?

[G26ster]

For my own part, I tend to shoot pistols with both eyes open, although it does require a conscious effort on my part.

You are well ahead of the game then, AM. My experience is that both eyes open is rarely the case.

A world-class shooter would likely tell you that both eyes open is the ideal. One of the undefinable things this shooter must do is eliminate all distractions, and be focused on but one thing. Holding the weak eye shut requires the use of muscle power which can be one of those unconscious distractions.

To show yourself just one element of keeping both eyes open, look at a sight picture with them both open, then force the weak eye closed. It is almost certain that your strong eye will be affected, slightly close, and reduce your effective vision. We old guys like you and me need every advantage we can get. Right?

I have no trouble adjusting or using my lasers with only my dominant eye.

[remington79]

If you could only have one I'd get the night sights. they work well in the day time. I like the white dots around the tritium and I find it makes using the sights easier than all black sights. Most defensive situations occur at night or in low light. You'll still need a flashlight but if you've ever shot at night or low light a flashlight doesn't help you see your sights at all. I haven't read it yet on this thread but one of the FFLs here in town has both night sights and a Crimson Trace on his pistol. He has the night sights set for one distance the the CT zeroed for a different distance. I haven't used or gotten into the CT but I can see how they'd be useful when firing from retention.