MoJo wrote:According to what I've read, the bullet in the WWB Personal Protection ammo is the same as Silvertip without the silver color. I use the 9mm 115 gr WWBPP and have no qualms about it at all. The specs on the 115 gr loading are identical to the specs on the Winchester Ranger 115 gr standard pressure law enforcement ammo.
David DiFabio from AmmoLab posted the comments about WWB on WarriorTalk awhile ago; I have not done my own testing. :) The Silvertip is what I used to carry in .40, but I switched to Ranger RA40TA when I saw that the Silvertip used to have problems expanding in heavy clothing, even though performance in bare gel was adequate. It would no longer be my first choice in my G23- but I wouldn't exactly feel unarmed, either. :)
MoJo wrote:The ammunition you use is a very small part of the equation - - - tactics, mindset, and marksmanship make up 90% of what goes into winning a gunfight. Caliber, brand of ammo and brand of gun make up the other 10%.
Mojo- I couldn't agree with you more.
"A man who asks is a fool for five minutes- a man who does not ask is a fool forever."
I've read tons and tons of these threads. Most people seem to think the best ammo is the most expensive ammo. But out of all the most expensive ammo's that have been tested no one can truly say which one is the best no matter how much testing has been done. Basically I have come to the conclusion that the best PPA ammo (JHP) you can buy is the one you can afford to buy and practice with.
OEF- What is Wallyworld getting nowadays for a box of WWB PP in 9mm or .40? I buy the ball ammo for practice; haven't priced the JHP stuff in a long time. I figure if I can get Ranger from Jerry at approx. $18-20/box of 50, I'm doin' ok...
As to the 'best" PPA....I don't wanna get shot by any of it....
"A man who asks is a fool for five minutes- a man who does not ask is a fool forever."
onerifle wrote:OEF- What is Wallyworld getting nowadays for a box of WWB PP in 9mm or .40? I buy the ball ammo for practice; haven't priced the JHP stuff in a long time. I figure if I can get Ranger from Jerry at approx. $18-20/box of 50, I'm doin' ok...
As to the 'best" PPA....I don't wanna get shot by any of it....
My wallyworld is getting 11.00 per 50 in 9mm.
As to the 'best" PPA....I don't wanna get shot by any of it....
I don't even want to get shot with the worst PPA ammo. Gotta hurt!
The difference between the "best" and the "worst" JHP ammunition nowadays is very small. If the ammunition is loaded by a reputable firm with modern bullets it is going to work. I have a problem with the idea of a "magic bullet" 'cause, just like the tooth fairy, they are a myth.
"To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Texas and Louisiana CHL Instructor, NRA Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Personal Protection and Refuse To Be A Victim Instructor
FWIW...while there is no magic bullet, I'd still rather place my confidence in a bullet design that has proven, documented, performance in the field in LEO OIS, for example, Winchester Ranger, Speer Gold Dot or Remington Golden Saber. While I used to be a Corbon fan, I have never met a LEO whose department issued them. Not saying that some don't, but the above loads have a (good) track record- so I figure why scrimp 8 bux on my carry round. While barrier performance probably isn't as critical for CCW as for LEO's, I figure if you have reached the point where you need to use your firearm, you have already reached "worst case scenario", so ammunition that performs well under the worst case situations may make the difference. Oh well..we're dealing in hypotheticals anyway...
Just remember- my advice is probably worth exactly what you paid for it...
"A man who asks is a fool for five minutes- a man who does not ask is a fool forever."
Thanks for the info. We can all benefit from it. I do have a question though, do you know what barrel lengths were used for the individual calibers tested???
I for one use a short (3 1/2") barreled 1911 style pistol for my CCW and I am looking for a load that will reliably expand/penetrate for this type of gun. I have the gun loaded with a load I have used for years in my longer barreled 1911 and other .45acp guns. Federal Hydrashoks 230gr. They are accurate and hopefully expanding efficiently to deliver their terminal energy to the target.
hello im samg21 im a range officer at a&p arms we have tested many rounds in 45acp at our range. we were checking for penetration,expansion, and other consistancies of the ammo we tested. in the 45acp cal. we tested 230gr. hydrashok, 230gr. golddot, 230gr. sxt 230gr.goldensaber, 230gr. winchester personal defense, 230gr. silvertip and 230gr. corbon jhp+p. while all are good loads we came up with the best 3 for personal defense. in your short barreled gun your best bet would be the golddots. the hydrashoks are a good round and i know alot of people that carry them but they have poor weight retention and have tendencies of slight jacket separation. the corbons just totaly failed our test because of completely falling apart. the silvertips also fell apart to much. the sxt's had way to much penetration for self defence and we never even recovered them. the golddots, goldensabers, and the win. personal defense all 3 had excellent and consistant pentration, weight retention, and expantion. the golddots have a bonded jacket to the core so they will not fall apart. they also are made to expand thru short barreled guns with goldensabers coming in a strong and opinionated 2cd. both these rounds had a 100% weight retention. i hope this has helped you.
It would be my guess that the SXT's that were never recovered were due to the hollow point failing to expand & basically closing in on itself and becoming similar to a FMJ, and flying straight through the gelatin (correct me if im wrong)
TacticalForums.com is a good place to find knowlegeable experts on ballistics along with good information. Heres a quick list of what has gained their approval (through extensive testing):
The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:
9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP (53617)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP (53619)
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP (53961)
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP (53966)
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP (23966)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)
SJRTX wrote:It would be my guess that the SXT's that were never recovered were due to the hollow point failing to expand & basically closing in on itself and becoming similar to a FMJ, and flying straight through the gelatin (correct me if im wrong)
[quote- samg21] you are more than likely right. we also think thats what happened. you can also do these tests on your own if you have anywhere you can shoot outside fill up 5 or 6 1gallon milk jugs full of water just tape or glue the tops on so the lids cant fly off when hit and lose the water pressure from inside the jugs to fast.line the jugs up in a straight line all facing the same way. it is very important to make sure they are all straight and you shoot straight into them to avoid losing the bullet thru the sides of the jugs. the thin plastic from the jugs makes like clothing and since our bodies are mostly water anyway this makes for the next best thing next to ballistic gel. you can even put the first jug under some clothing just make sure you mark where you need to hit on the clothing. these tests we performed were performed with gel and water jugs with the same results on each. for a good self defense round you want the bullet to be trapped in the 3rd or 4th jug anything less is not enough penetration to get to vitals and do any significant damage. anything more and you risk over penetration. we all know over penetration can have life changing cosiquences. remember you are responsible for that bullet once it leaves that barrel you dont want it to go straight thru the bad guy thru your wall and hit your sleeping family member or anyother inacent bystander. i hope you have fun with your tests and its cool to watch the energy deposit from the bullet explode the jugs. UNTIL NEXT TIME STAY SAFE, SHOOT STRAIGHT AND REMEMBER ANY GUN IS BETTER THAN NO GUN.
TacticalForums.com is a good place to find knowlegeable experts on ballistics along with good information. Heres a quick list of what has gained their approval (through extensive testing):
The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:
9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP (53617)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP (53619)
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP (53961)
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP (53966)
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP (23966)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)
