Is the 21 Foot Rule Still Valid?

[Excaliber]

Many of our members have referred to the so called "21 foot rule" (based on the Tueller drill exercise) for dealing with assailants armed with a contact weapon like a knife, hatchet, or hammer.

There's a lot more to this discussion than most folks outside of advanced law enforcement training circles usually get a chance to hear about. The two part Force Science Research Center article in the links below may be of interest to the serious student of incident dynamics as they apply to self defense situations.

Warning: The articles are several pages long and address many of the variables that affect outcomes. Folks with short attention spans may not enjoy them.

Payoff: For the serious practitioner, they're well worth the read. There's a pretty good chance you'll be adjusting your personal defensive tactics as a result.

The links take you to 2 different issues of the Force Science News. Depending on your screen layout, you may have to scroll down a bit to get to the right article.

Part I

Part II

[jester]

The principle is valid. If you wait until an attacker with a knife or club is close enough to touch you, you're way behind the curve.

[Excaliber]

The principle is valid. If you wait until an attacker with a knife or club is close enough to touch you, you're way behind the curve.

It may be less valid than you think.

In many circumstances, 21 feet is not a sufficient defensive gap if an assailant makes a sudden and determined attack against someone with a holstered handgun. Things like terrain, footing, defender holster choices, and other variables significantly affect how different attack styles and defense options play out together.

On the other hand, the simple presence of a contact weapon armed subject inside 21 feet is not by itself a justification for use of deadly force.

As I suggested in the original post, there's a lot more to this than what is commonly taught in CHL circles for those willing to read and learn.

[baldeagle]

Many of our members have referred to the so called "21 foot rule" (based on the Tueller drill exercise) for dealing with assailants armed with a contact weapon like a knife, hatchet, or hammer.

There's a lot more to this discussion than most folks outside of advanced law enforcement training circles usually get a chance to hear about. The two part Force Science Research Center article in the links below may be of interest to the serious student of incident dynamics as they apply to self defense situations.

Warning: The articles are several pages long and address many of the variables that affect outcomes. Folks with short attention spans may not enjoy them.

Payoff: For the serious practitioner, they're well worth the read. There's a pretty good chance you'll be adjusting your personal defensive tactics as a result.

The links take you to 2 different issues of the Force Science News. Depending on your screen layout, you may have to scroll down a bit to get to the right article.

Part I

Part II

Sheesh Excaliber. Thanks to you I'm reading The Gift of Fear while simultaneously reading In The Gravest Extreme, with both On Combat and Tactical Reality on deck. And now you want me to read these two? When does it ever end?

[Excaliber]

Many of our members have referred to the so called "21 foot rule" (based on the Tueller drill exercise) for dealing with assailants armed with a contact weapon like a knife, hatchet, or hammer.

There's a lot more to this discussion than most folks outside of advanced law enforcement training circles usually get a chance to hear about. The two part Force Science Research Center article in the links below may be of interest to the serious student of incident dynamics as they apply to self defense situations.

Warning: The articles are several pages long and address many of the variables that affect outcomes. Folks with short attention spans may not enjoy them.

Payoff: For the serious practitioner, they're well worth the read. There's a pretty good chance you'll be adjusting your personal defensive tactics as a result.

The links take you to 2 different issues of the Force Science News. Depending on your screen layout, you may have to scroll down a bit to get to the right article.

Part I

Part II

Sheesh Excaliber. Thanks to you I'm reading The Gift of Fear while simultaneously reading In The Gravest Extreme, with both On Combat and Tactical Reality on deck. And now you want me to read these two? When does it ever end?

It doesn't.

I'm making a project out of making sure you don't run out of good reading material.

If you get within 2 books of caught up, please be sure to let me know and I'll dump a list of another 4 or 5 on ya!

[baldeagle]

OK, back to the books now....

What I liked best among the suggestions was the "J" move. It makes sense to me that, if someone is charging you, you move to the side and then 45 degrees toward the direction the attacker is coming from. This seems to me to create the most confusion in the attacker's mind while buying you time to unholster and prepare to fire if the danger continues. The one question I have about the move that wasn't addressed is, in which direction is the "J"? Away from the attacker's knife hand? That makes sense to me, but I've learned enough at this point to realize that I don't really know much that matches reality.

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, you move backwards in the same direction as the attacker's forward motion, then move to the side, then at 45 degrees toward the attacker's path?

Help me out here, oh guru.

[Excaliber]

OK, back to the books now....

What I liked best among the suggestions was the "J" move. It makes sense to me that, if someone is charging you, you move to the side and then 45 degrees toward the direction the attacker is coming from. This seems to me to create the most confusion in the attacker's mind while buying you time to unholster and prepare to fire if the danger continues. The one question I have about the move that wasn't addressed is, in which direction is the "J"? Away from the attacker's knife hand? That makes sense to me, but I've learned enough at this point to realize that I don't really know much that matches reality.

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, you move backwards in the same direction as the attacker's forward motion, then move to the side, then at 45 degrees toward the attacker's path?

Help me out here, oh guru.

The backwards part isn't usually productive because he's going to be gaining ground moving forward faster than you can move back. The trick is to wait until the attacker is completely committed to driving through your expected position, and then pivot yourself suddenly to the side before he gets to you, but too late to stop his forward momentum through where you used to be. Terrain and obstacles may dictate which side is best.

If you stop there, lots of times he can still hurt you by altering his path slightly. Especially on the outboard (weapon hand) side, he may be able to slash you at this point by extending his arm out to the side as he passes if you haven't been able to move far enough off the line of attack. However, if you follow the sidestep by moving 45 degrees away and back toward the direction he came from, it usually puts you completely out of reach as he goes by if you've timed it right. Of course, it's not over at this point. Evading the first lunge is good, but in another second or so he's going to stop, reorient, and renew the attack on your new location, but you've bought some time by evading the first attack attempt to run, put cover or obstacles between you and him, or deploy a firearm if needed.

It sounds simple, but it's a lot harder to do than I'm making it sound here, and the physical abilities of the attacker have a significant impact on what it will take to make it all work. A big, heavy guy will have more committed inertia than a slim, agile guy and will have a harder time making course corrections, but the slim guy can successfully alter course in reaction to your moves later and further. Trying it with multiple partners is the best way to work out the kinks for differences in settings and physical abilities.

[TXlaw1]

Excellent information, Excalibur. Much obliged. I'll be interested in seeing how this thread plays out. Lots to think about beyond what is taught in the CHL class. Even a retired LEO can learn from this exchange. Thanks.

[Excaliber]

Excellent information, Excalibur. Much obliged. I'll be interested in seeing how this thread plays out. Lots to think about beyond what is taught in the CHL class. Even a retired LEO can learn from this exchange. Thanks.

You're welcome!

In my view, all of us on the Forum are both students and teachers. We switch roles back and forth as we share knowledge with each other and absorb it the same way so we don't all have to learn everything from personal experience.

There just isn't enough time available to learn all we need to know from making all the possible mistakes that others already know how to avoid.

[gwashorn]

We did a drill in the NRA "Outside the Home Personal Protection" class on the 21 foot rule. I got to do the test. We used my lovely wife Jeri Ann to have the gun. She had it unholstered, loaded, safety off and in ready low position. I am 58 years old and knees a bit worn out. I do play regular tennis and I am fairly quick, but still, I am NOT a young bad guy. I was able to get well over 20 feet before she got her weapon raised and fired the first shot and past 25 feet on her second shot. (OH, I was running away from her and she was shooting a target in the other direction.... grin) Now she KNEW I was going to bolt and run and yet she still could not get a shot off before I could have gotten a full size car or truck length and gotten to her. And my wife is not a bad shot nor slow. With even a knife I could have completed my goal to stab her. So imagine you are CCW in a parking lot and see someone walking toward you and your neck hairs stand up. At what point do you think you can stop the attack? You have to recognize, assess, decide and then make the physical act happen to draw your weapon. How fast can you do all of those things can be measured in distance. this 21 foot rule is that distance and to me it is still way too close. Evasive manuvers come into play to give you the time to off set that distance/time issue. the 21 foot rule to me is I should have already recognized, assessed and made my decision. Because at 21 feet, they can get to me and I may still not get a shot off.

Gary

[Excaliber]

does Caliber Press still have the "Surviving Edged Weapons" series available? I remember having to go through that training back in the mid 90's...

don't guess the BG's have gotten any slower..

Yes. It's available here.

[Purplehood]

I admit to not paying much attention to this whole topic for a number of reasons, be they bad or good:

- If a bad looking person is coming at me from a distance away with hands in pockets, and refuses to be swayed from an apparent direct-course towards me despite loud verbal protestations I still have absolutely no legal right to even pull my weapon and warn that person off.
I can only legally do it when that person gets right in my space, pulls out a weapon and proceeds to ginsu/flay my tender sensibilities.

- I find it extremely unlikely that any attacker is going to forego the element of surprise and give me clear evidence that they intend to threaten me with bodily harm/deadly force. The only exceptions that I can foresee are getting caught up in a robbery situation.

- In my mind most situations where deadly force are going to become apparently necessary are going to be in up-front and personal, bad-breath distance away. -car jackings- -ambush at your front-door or your car, where you failed to be aware of an indvidual for whatever reason-

I just don't get the importance of the issue.

[baldeagle]

I admit to not paying much attention to this whole topic for a number of reasons, be they bad or good:

- If a bad looking person is coming at me from a distance away with hands in pockets, and refuses to be swayed from an apparent direct-course towards me despite loud verbal protestations I still have absolutely no legal right to even pull my weapon and warn that person off.
I can only legally do it when that person gets right in my space, pulls out a weapon and proceeds to ginsu/flay my tender sensibilities.

- I find it extremely unlikely that any attacker is going to forego the element of surprise and give me clear evidence that they intend to threaten me with bodily harm/deadly force. The only exceptions that I can foresee are getting caught up in a robbery situation.

- In my mind most situations where deadly force are going to become apparently necessary are going to be in up-front and personal, bad-breath distance away. -car jackings- -ambush at your front-door or your car, where you failed to be aware of an indvidual for whatever reason-

I just don't get the importance of the issue.

I think the importance is this. If you aren't aware that someone within 21 feet of you could easily stab you before you can react and shoot them, then you won't be as alert as you should be. If you wait until the person is "right in your space", it's too late. You're going to get stabbed unless you can take evasive action.

[ELB]

Somehow I never thought of the tueller drill as a "rule," just an (important) example meant to be an eye opener. Nothing magic about 21 feet -- it was just an average based on the combination of officers and "attackers" used to measure reaction time. Depending on the actual defender and attacker, the distance might be more or less.

More succinctly, the lesson is a person with a contact weapon does not have to be at contact distance to be a threat, as baldeagle said.

Certainly you shouldn't blast someone just for carrying a baseball bat, but if you have some other indicators he is violently hostile to you, you should not be complacent just because he is beyond swinging distance at the moment; he may already be inside your reaction time if you just stand there waiting for him to make his move. Maybe you should be moving and increasing distance, and getting out of his obvious route (ie the line of force); If he does make his move you definitely need to boogie -- while drawing and shooting.

At least that is what I see as the importance of the tueller drill.