Houston Hospital

AR Traveler · Post by **AR Traveler** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:06 pm

I came across this sign next to the elevators in a public parking garage in Houston. Any comments?

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:30 pm

AR Traveler wrote:I came across this sign next to the elevators in a public parking garage in Houston. Any comments?

I would say since it is a hospital they have to post a 30.06 sign to keep a CHL holder from carrying.

It does not matter who "controls" them.

stevie_d_64 · Post by **stevie_d_64** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:55 pm

If it were me...I'd ignore it...

As much as I understand their intent to post a sign like that...And in the past I would probably turn around and secure it back in my vehicle, or never return...

But there is just something that kinda clicked with me...

If whomever posted this sign were required to post a sign with the intent to restrict ALL people CHL or not to pass...Then I believe it is proper to start prosecuting illegal signage...

For this sign to use verbage similar to the legal sign, yet play with the "buzz" words like "premises", "trespassing", "under control", "University" all designed to play upon the reasonable actions of people in the CHL licensed community, is improper, unethical, and should be illegal...

Until the 30.06 goes away (which is silly and unrealistic I suppose), and our community is compelled under penalties laid out within the law to comply...Or else!

I believe the other side of the coin needs to get its act together...

Post the correct signage in full compliance to the law, or face the same penalties (we would) for not doing so...

On this and other forums for years we have discussed this (ad nauseum) issue...

I'll still comply, and for some silly reason go back to my old tried and true method of respecting the intent of the owners of those facilities that post these spurious confusing signs...

But in the back of my mind I'm thinking enough is enough...

I think the burn needs to be equalized between the two factions...

Sorry for the ever increasing unreasonable Steve rant again, but this just kinda hit me at just the right time today I suppose...

I believe it is wrong to the point of criminal to play with the sensibilities of good people like ourselves with things like this...

Enough is enough...That sign right there would be ignored...

Thane · Post by **Thane** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:22 pm

I'd ignore the sign.

While it may be under the "control" of the UT system, it's a parking garage, not considered "premises" under Texas law in reference to schools. Unless they're holding class in the garage

, they would need a proper 30.06 sign, as the standard school prohibition doesn't fly. You can drive into an elementary school's parking lot with a pistol on your hip; just don't enter the building. Likewise here.

Except they cannot post the 30.06 sign. They're a state-funded facility.

So, not only is that the wrong sign, but it's not considered a "school," and it's not permitted to effectively post anyway.

I'd not hesitate to drive in and park while carrying. However, I'd recommend securing the firearm before exiting the vehicle, as adjoining premises are most undoubtedly considered "school premises."

That's how I understand it, at least.

lrb111 · Post by **lrb111** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:07 pm

Good read on it, Thane.

KBCraig · Post by **KBCraig** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:53 pm

This is obviously not a sufficient 30.06 notice. But it is an obvious attempt to inform carriers that they are entering a "school".

I would not ignore it.

Kevin

Flatland2D · Post by **Flatland2D** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:21 am

Thane wrote:Except they cannot post the 30.06 sign. They're a state-funded facility.

So, not only is that the wrong sign, but it's not considered a "school," and it's not permitted to effectively post anyway.

How is it not a school? I thought all universities would be considered off limits as well. 46.03 prohibits schools and educational institutions and never defines what either one is. The absence or presence of state funding is never mentioned.

Being a college student, I hope this is one thing that gets cleared up next session, though I'll be graduated by the time it goes in effect.

As for the sign, I don't think it's enforceable. The 46.03 definition of premises is the same for 46.035 which is:

(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a
building. The term does not include any public or private driveway,
street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other
parking area.

Although where would you be going once you left the garage?

Post by **Skiprr** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:03 am

I agree with 2D that this is one of those areas that needs clarification. Context may be everything on this one...although a better-written sign might help matters...geez, it's a large university, after all.

Being a Houstonian, I'm aware of three facilities that might house this sign. One is the University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston, and another is the University of Texas Medical School at Houston. Both of these seem to fairly clearly fall under PC Section 46.03 (and I'll make the leap of faith that 2D did that the sign, as posted at the entrance to the elevators in the parking garage, was meant as notification not about the garage but about the floor you're about to step on once the elevator opens onto the "premises" proper; I think it's saying "leave your weapons behind--as in the car--before you enter the building").

My bet is that the sign, though, is in the garage of the M.D. Anderson Cancer Center. The name of the facility doesn't imply it is a school, and the public's primary view of it is as of a functioning hospital, not a school. But its full name is "The University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center," and beyond patient treatment, its missions are research and...education. The center itself actually offers several health-discipline bachelor's degrees, and it has about 4,000 actively participating students receiving education inside its walls during the course of a year.

We'll need to ask AR Traveler if I've guessed right, but I'm betting that's why the wording of the sign seems a bit strange ("under the control of the University of Texas..."). I'm thinking a DA would have a solid case to contend that the M.D. Anderson Cancer Center falls under 46.03(1), "...a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted...whether the school is public or private...."

stevie_d_64 · Post by **stevie_d_64** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:10 pm

Ben Taub (Houston) would fall under the section too in this case...It's considered a "teaching hospital", so they haven't posted anything from what I've seen of the place as many times as I go there...

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:29 pm

A hospital licensed under the health and safety is a hospital according to the CHL laws. Therefore, it is not a school, despite what teaching may go on there.

Post by **Skiprr** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:31 pm

Pondering...

And seeking knowledgeable contribution on this issue.

When is a hospital a "hospital," and when is it a school? I can't find any correlation in the literature.

txinvestigator: are absolutely sure your interpretation is correct?

longtooth · Post by **longtooth** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:36 pm

Go w/ txi.

TxFire · Post by **TxFire** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:22 pm

Thank you TXI for stating what I have always contended.

A doctor could perform a procedure in a school classroom proper and that would not make it a Hospital per the law. I feel that calling teaching hospitals schools is a dangerous road to take and could open up other Non-schools to school status if the point were pushed.

KBCraig · Post by **KBCraig** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:26 pm

txinvestigator wrote:A hospital licensed under the health and safety is a hospital according to the CHL laws. Therefore, it is not a school, despite what teaching may go on there.

Why can it only be one or the other?

A city-owned park can't post a valid 30.06 notice, but if a school is holding a sports practice, that field becomes a school. The same would be true of any other government property; if a school is holding classes or "activities" there, it becomes a school, off limits for CHL.

If a park can be both a park and a school, why can't a hospital?

Kevin

AR Traveler · Post by **AR Traveler** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:29 am

The garage is on or close to the MD Anderson campus at Fannin and Pressler and I had a meeting in a building close by which definitely was not part of the UT System. I've used the garage before and noticed the sigh but never been carrying. I usually fly in for day trips so it's not worth the hassle to check a bag... The reason it irked me to see the sign is that this was on the 5th floor and you have to take the elevator down to go inside to pay before leaving. There's practically no claim of "plausible deniability" that one didn't walk past the sign (even if it was at knee cap level). This seems almost like a trap for CHLers since it's not apparent that it is a "school" and yet we're given nominal notice (that may or may not be accurate/sufficient) in a place (parking garage) that is specifically mentioned in the statute.

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