A follow forum member asked for my opinion. Below is the PM I sent out. However, I think it would help him to get more than just my opinion since I'm no expert by any measure. So, I hope others,more knowledgabl folks would chime in. I hope this forum member makes a purchase that he'll be happy with for a long time.
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These are my opinions, based on my personal needs. I don't like the LEM/DAK triggers, so the below only applies to DA/SA.
The HK P2000 has the following over the Sigs:
1. interchangable back straps
2. polygonal rifling
3. full ambi controls
4. recoil reduction buffer
5. "Standard" location for the slide release button
The Sigs were ahead of their time, but that was long ago. They've not changed much besides getting rails added to them. However, until the HK P30/3000 is introduced, you only have theP2000 in compact and subcompact.
The big thing about the Sig is that they have very good SA trigger (light and crisp). And HKs have a reputation for bad SA. But you can try dry firing both.
However, everything else about them is a bit out of date; and they are heavy due to their metal frame. (Note, I'm assuming you aren't interestd in the SigPros. I did own a SP2009, not a bad pistol at all but still heavy.)
The HK and Sigs shoots very similar w/ their "high bore axis":) But their design actually allows them to come back on target very fast (you do get a high muzzle flip, which isn't very good for beginner shooters, but once you "get it", they are fast pistols).
I used to be a Sig fan years ago, but the HK P2000 is in every way better than a Sig excpet slightly worse SA triggger. So now I'm almost an HK fan. I hate to admit it, but I'm really a Glock fan.
HK or Sig
Moderator: carlson1
All above is correct. I really like the new Baretta Storm. Has all the stuff listed for the HK except the recoil reduction buffer. The rotating barrel seems to take care of that part. I am having to buy 2 for Christmas. Trigger DA is a not really bad but not quite what I would like having shot a 1911 for so long. SA it is FINE. $s is a lot better too.
To answer the real Q you asked. HK even though I don't personally like them.
To answer the real Q you asked. HK even though I don't personally like them.
Carry 24-7 or guess right.
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G.C.Montgomery
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You left out some very imporant information on the modern triggers available in both these guns. You may not like them but they are worth discussing for potential buyers. I actually prefer them to HK and Sig's traditional DA/SA triggers. I prefer them for the same reason I've always preferred 1911's and Glocks, the trigger feels the same for every shot.
The P2000 was designed from the start with HK's LEM trigger system. Sig now offers DAK models featuring their "K" trigger. Both systems are designed to compete against Glock's long standing advantage of having the same trigger stroke for every shot fired. Technically speaking, they are "self-decocking" pistols featuring all passive safety systems as is the case with the Glock. The difference is, being hammer-fired, they both offer second strike capability...Meaning you can attempt to fired a bad rounds again by simply pulling the trigger a second time without racking the slide. This is something not found in striker-fired systems like the Glock. I don't train to use this feature so it's a non-issue to me. Still, the DAK and LEM trigger systems feel very different and it's worth trying each as well as looking at the overall ergonomics before investing in either gun. I like both but prefer Sig's trigger.
The DAK system is not the same as the old DAO models SigSauer offered in the past. The DAK trigger stroke is significantly lighter, slightly shorter, has no perceptable stacking and resets more consistently than any previous Sig trigger except their new single action only models. There is no decocking lever on DAK models but the pistols are otherwise similar to classic SigSauer pistols. Some of the later "classic" SigSauer pistols can also be converted to DAK triggers for about $150. This trigger is only available in the "classic" and newer "R" models. The SigPro line currently is out of luck with respect to the DAK trigger. I personally don't recommend the polymer framed SigPro pistols because of the fragile, plastic magazine catch that is prone to self-disassembly in my experience. So the lack of the modern trigger system is just another strike against the SigPro, IMHO. As mentioned earlier, the DAK models do offer second strike capability for those who care. It's worth noting the weight and length of that second trigger stroke does not change as it does in HK's LEM system.
HK's P2000 was designed from the ground up with their LEM trigger system. This is a weird hybrid in that it's both slide-cocking and trigger-cocking. The normal trigger stroke is still plenty long but, it's half the weight of the old double action trigger. It starts out very light and stacks to 6-7lbs at the very end of the stroke. One can learn to press straight through so that this stacking can almost be ignored. I've noticed what feels like a false reset as you try to catch the link for follow up shots but that's common on most hammer-fired, self-decocking pistols. The second strike in the LEM system reverts to HK's long, gritty, torturous, thirteen-pound, double-action trigger stroke. But again, I don't train to use this "feature" so it's a non-issue for me. If you must have it, there is a DA/SA variant for the P2000. But, this was an after thought that came about when a large government buyer asked for it the feature after the P2000 was in production. The decocker on the DA/SA version of the P2000 is a button on the back of the slide to the left of the hammer. That's not the most ergonomic location for a lefty or anyone else but that's what happens when you make a design change after the fact. If I were a lefty, this a gun I'd buy....Yeah, I know I really am a lefty but I am in my right mind and I learned to shoot correctly with my right hand.
It's my opinion that both guns are of equal quality. I have not seen either show a great deal more reliability than the other. Practical accuracy is also similar between both brands regardless of which model you choose. Having said that, I'm assuming we are talking about a pistol for concealed carry, I'd recommend SigSauer's P229DAK for consideration with the P2000 since it's similar in size to the P2000. But there is the P2000SK, which has a shorter butt and is specifically marketted for concealed carry. All these pistols were designed with the .40/.357 cartridges in mind so they will hold up well with these cartridges and work just fine with 9mm too. I think the P2000 may have the edge for lefties since all the controls are duplicated on the right side of the gun in the proper locations. The magazine catch can be reversed on the Sig if it's important to you but the slide-stop lever is pretty much fixed in that "weird" position. You have to decide for yourself if the left hand convience features are important. As a lefty myself, I've learned a lefty can operate any handgun whether it's designed for lefties or not.
The P2000 was designed from the start with HK's LEM trigger system. Sig now offers DAK models featuring their "K" trigger. Both systems are designed to compete against Glock's long standing advantage of having the same trigger stroke for every shot fired. Technically speaking, they are "self-decocking" pistols featuring all passive safety systems as is the case with the Glock. The difference is, being hammer-fired, they both offer second strike capability...Meaning you can attempt to fired a bad rounds again by simply pulling the trigger a second time without racking the slide. This is something not found in striker-fired systems like the Glock. I don't train to use this feature so it's a non-issue to me. Still, the DAK and LEM trigger systems feel very different and it's worth trying each as well as looking at the overall ergonomics before investing in either gun. I like both but prefer Sig's trigger.
The DAK system is not the same as the old DAO models SigSauer offered in the past. The DAK trigger stroke is significantly lighter, slightly shorter, has no perceptable stacking and resets more consistently than any previous Sig trigger except their new single action only models. There is no decocking lever on DAK models but the pistols are otherwise similar to classic SigSauer pistols. Some of the later "classic" SigSauer pistols can also be converted to DAK triggers for about $150. This trigger is only available in the "classic" and newer "R" models. The SigPro line currently is out of luck with respect to the DAK trigger. I personally don't recommend the polymer framed SigPro pistols because of the fragile, plastic magazine catch that is prone to self-disassembly in my experience. So the lack of the modern trigger system is just another strike against the SigPro, IMHO. As mentioned earlier, the DAK models do offer second strike capability for those who care. It's worth noting the weight and length of that second trigger stroke does not change as it does in HK's LEM system.
HK's P2000 was designed from the ground up with their LEM trigger system. This is a weird hybrid in that it's both slide-cocking and trigger-cocking. The normal trigger stroke is still plenty long but, it's half the weight of the old double action trigger. It starts out very light and stacks to 6-7lbs at the very end of the stroke. One can learn to press straight through so that this stacking can almost be ignored. I've noticed what feels like a false reset as you try to catch the link for follow up shots but that's common on most hammer-fired, self-decocking pistols. The second strike in the LEM system reverts to HK's long, gritty, torturous, thirteen-pound, double-action trigger stroke. But again, I don't train to use this "feature" so it's a non-issue for me. If you must have it, there is a DA/SA variant for the P2000. But, this was an after thought that came about when a large government buyer asked for it the feature after the P2000 was in production. The decocker on the DA/SA version of the P2000 is a button on the back of the slide to the left of the hammer. That's not the most ergonomic location for a lefty or anyone else but that's what happens when you make a design change after the fact. If I were a lefty, this a gun I'd buy....Yeah, I know I really am a lefty but I am in my right mind and I learned to shoot correctly with my right hand.
It's my opinion that both guns are of equal quality. I have not seen either show a great deal more reliability than the other. Practical accuracy is also similar between both brands regardless of which model you choose. Having said that, I'm assuming we are talking about a pistol for concealed carry, I'd recommend SigSauer's P229DAK for consideration with the P2000 since it's similar in size to the P2000. But there is the P2000SK, which has a shorter butt and is specifically marketted for concealed carry. All these pistols were designed with the .40/.357 cartridges in mind so they will hold up well with these cartridges and work just fine with 9mm too. I think the P2000 may have the edge for lefties since all the controls are duplicated on the right side of the gun in the proper locations. The magazine catch can be reversed on the Sig if it's important to you but the slide-stop lever is pretty much fixed in that "weird" position. You have to decide for yourself if the left hand convience features are important. As a lefty myself, I've learned a lefty can operate any handgun whether it's designed for lefties or not.
Last edited by G.C.Montgomery on Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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G. C. Montgomery, Jr.
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txinvestigator
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Great posts.
My bottom line; which gun feel and shoot sbetter for the purchaser? I love Sig, but they don't fit the geometry of my hand well at all. HKs feel right to me.
I know people who are just the opposite.
My bottom line; which gun feel and shoot sbetter for the purchaser? I love Sig, but they don't fit the geometry of my hand well at all. HKs feel right to me.
I know people who are just the opposite.
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"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan
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Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
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HOSSISFREE
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I considered this question before purchasing my H&K. I rented both in the same trip to the range and found that the Sig felt better in my hand, but the bottom line was that I shot a better group with the H&K.
That may sound simplistic, but to me, that's what it comes down to. Putting everything else aside, which makes a "prettier" target in my hand.
Hoss
That may sound simplistic, but to me, that's what it comes down to. Putting everything else aside, which makes a "prettier" target in my hand.
Hoss
..." it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." ~ Declaration of Independence!
Not liking an HK? How can anyone not like a gun that has no compromises?longtooth wrote: To answer the real Q you asked. HK even though I don't personally like them.
Seriously, I love Berettas. It is probably the only gun that I own that'll have any chance to improve in value. I highly doubt any guns I have will increase in value, but if I had to guess one, it'll be my Beretta M9. There seems to be a cult following w/ Beretta for some reason, and it being the gun used by our armed forces.
I'm debating if I should get a PX4. I've hear a lot of good things about them. If they had a more subdued look and design, I probably would have already bought one.
Jeff....love my Sigs 229 n 239, Wife's 232txinvestigator wrote:Great posts.
My bottom line; which gun feel and shoot sbetter for the purchaser? I love Sig, but they don't fit the geometry of my hand well at all. HKs feel right to me.
I know people who are just the opposite.
....but really 239 getting heavy on me for carry...looking to HK 2000SK or Kahr PM9. Son's USPc got great feel as well...but still prefer the trigger and handle of the 229 over the USPc. In fact, both son and I shoot tighter with the 229- more intuative. Shot a P40 Kahr ...but grip very small for my hands. Anyone on the Fire Storm Beretta??
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HK or Sig
I liked the P2000 so much, I bought the SK as well.
I have a Sig 229 in 40/357 and 239 in .357. Both are excellent.
I think the ergonomics of the P2000 series best fit my hand. They feel more like a 1911 which I shoot best. With high cap and da/sa trigger, it is the best for me. It's very concealable too.
The 239 has wonderful ergonomics but can get heavy. It has less mag capacity as well.
If I had to get rid of all my guns but one, would probably stick with the P2000. That's hard for my to say as I have multiple 1911s and learned to shoot with them.
I have a Sig 229 in 40/357 and 239 in .357. Both are excellent.
I think the ergonomics of the P2000 series best fit my hand. They feel more like a 1911 which I shoot best. With high cap and da/sa trigger, it is the best for me. It's very concealable too.
The 239 has wonderful ergonomics but can get heavy. It has less mag capacity as well.
If I had to get rid of all my guns but one, would probably stick with the P2000. That's hard for my to say as I have multiple 1911s and learned to shoot with them.