Staggered Loading: JHP, FMJ, JHP...

[Flatland2D]

A recent post about carrying ball ammo reminded me of something I heard during my CHL class.

The instructor said he "staggered" his ammo, meaning the first round was hollow point, next was FMJ, then hollow point, etc. He said that the FMJ were for penetration in case he needed to shoot through a car door or such. To me it seems you're kind of stuck shooting a FMJ if you need more than one shot to stop a BG. Maybe one of your spare mags could be all FMJ in case you needed it (although it would probably take to long to access anyway).

Just wondering what all your thoughts are about this. Anyone do this?

[jbirds1210]

I know there are going to be some better answers, but from my experience, the only time my Glock 17 has jammed is when I was mixing ammunition in a mag. Two different brands of FMJ which were different overall lengths. Maybe it was coincidence, but I was locked up tight. I will not mix my ammunition again.
Jason

[txinvestigator]

A recent post about carrying ball ammo reminded me of something I heard during my CHL class.

The instructor said he "staggered" his ammo, meaning the first round was hollow point, next was FMJ, then hollow point, etc. He said that the FMJ were for penetration in case he needed to shoot through a car door or such. To me it seems you're kind of stuck shooting a FMJ if you need more than one shot to stop a BG. Maybe one of your spare mags could be all FMJ in case you needed it (although it would probably take to long to access anyway).

Just wondering what all your thoughts are about this. Anyone do this?

I never understood that thinking. If I need the FMJ, I don't want to have to "shoot down to it", so to speak. And If I have to shoot a person more than once, I don't want a less than optimal round as my second shot.

That said, as a CHL holder when would you need to penetrate a car door or such? I also believe my HP rounds will be just as effective as a FMJ if I find myself in the unlikely need to penetrate a barrier.

With that thinking, just switch to .357 sig, like DPS.

I am more concerned about failing to stop a BG with a FMJ round and perhaps OVER-penetrating than I am with shooting thru barriers.

[Flatland2D]

That said, as a CHL holder when would you need to penetrate a car door or such? I also believe my HP rounds will be just as effective as a FMJ if I find myself in the unlikely need to penetrate a barrier.

Only thing I can think of are road rage scenarios.

A couple weekends ago I was shooting on family land and decided to see how well JHP's can penetrate metal. I found a scrap piece of steel probably no more than 0.1" thick. Single shots (147gr 9mm JHP) were not going through. Only repeated shots to the same area were able to break through. I didn't do a side by side comparison with FMJ but I was really surprised at this. A car door would be even harder to penetrate. In the end I was kind of assured to think that over-penetration wouldn't be an issue with a well placed shot.

I am more concerned about failing to stop a BG with a FMJ round and perhaps OVER-penetrating than I am with shooting thru barriers.

Very good point. Didn't think about it like that.

[ElGato]

I am more concerned about failing to stop a BG with a FMJ round and perhaps OVER-penetrating than I am with shooting thru barriers.

[John]

Never do this with 32 ACP ammo. It will almost always cause a jam (ammo gets stuck in the mag). the rim of 32 acp has a larger diameter than the case and if you mix hollow points (shorter length) with round ball, it's bad news. Do a search for rim lock and 32. I've had this happen.

[Chris]

A recent post about carrying ball ammo reminded me of something I heard during my CHL class.

The instructor said he "staggered" his ammo, meaning the first round was hollow point, next was FMJ, then hollow point, etc. He said that the FMJ were for penetration in case he needed to shoot through a car door or such. To me it seems you're kind of stuck shooting a FMJ if you need more than one shot to stop a BG. Maybe one of your spare mags could be all FMJ in case you needed it (although it would probably take to long to access anyway).

Just wondering what all your thoughts are about this. Anyone do this?

a friend of mine told me he wished he'd carried some ball ammo when he was working vice. he got into a shooting with a bad guy armed with a shotgun. he was shooting .40 hollow points. they were in a hallway, and the bad guy would use the wall for an entryway as cover. my friend was shooting at him, but the bullets weren't penetrating the sheetrock; they were exploding after hitting two layers of sheetrock. eventually the guy fled, but all he got was peppered with the shrapnel, and said he had plenty of time to take good aim (as good as i guess you could with someone behind a wall popping out with a shotgun), so he was avoiding the studs. he tried like hell to hit him through the wall. with FMJs, he probably would have tagged the guy.

i always carry a spare mag with ball ammo in it, but it's in my bag, not on me. i keep it should i have to shoot at a car, but i don't stagger rounds. i want to know what is coming out of my gun everytime i pull the trigger.

[Piney]

Greetings--

Interesting question.... It got me thinking.

After reading over the replies, I decided to change my car carried spare mag from JHP to FMJ. I'll still carry JHP in my pistol's mag and my on person spare mag.

[G.C.Montgomery]

I'm afraid I don't buy the story of bullets disintegrating after passing through two layers of drywall. There may have been some other factors there but I've seen all manner of current .40cal ammo zip through two layers of drywall while retaining more than enough mass and velocity to kill someone on the otherside.

Like txinvestigator, my primary concern would be OVERpenetrating my targets and failing to stop him with a non-expanding bullet that leaves sub-caliber wound cavities. Generally speaking, modern hollowpoints are designed with barrier penetration as part of the testing criteria. So, I really don't see a need to "stagger" the ammunition in my magazines. I also see no logic in the idea of having to "shoot down to" a penetrating round. This doesn't even register as a big enough concern that I'd both carrying a spare with nothing but FMJ. Of course, my standard carry rounds is a bonded hollowpoint and that may be worthy of consideration if barrier penetration really is a concern.

"Bonded" hollowpoint ammunition such as Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Saber "Bonded," Winchester Ranger "T," or Federal's new HST line are all designed to retain mass after penetrating barriers that often cause other bullets to break up. Another option that seems to get glowing reports is the Barnes' X-Bullet, a solid copper projectile sold as reloading components and now featured in Corbon's DPX ammunition line. Again, these bullets supposedly offer the best of both worlds in that they are designed to perform well after penetrating multiple barriers and/or glass. As a last resort, in a gun that won't feed any of the above loads, I might consider FMJ if no other gun/ammo combinations are available.

[jimlongley]

I would also be concerned about over penetration, but the answer to the amount of drywall it takes to break up a projectile lies at: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

[txinvestigator]

a friend of mine told me he wished he'd carried some ball ammo when he was working vice. he got into a shooting with a bad guy armed with a shotgun. he was shooting .40 hollow points. they were in a hallway, and the bad guy would use the wall for an entryway as cover. my friend was shooting at him, but the bullets weren't penetrating the sheetrock; they were exploding after hitting two layers of sheetrock. eventually the guy fled, but all he got was peppered with the shrapnel, and said he had plenty of time to take good aim (as good as i guess you could with someone behind a wall popping out with a shotgun), so he was avoiding the studs. he tried like hell to hit him through the wall. with FMJs, he probably would have tagged the guy.

.

I think there is information missing here. Bullets don't "explode". They can fragment, but not thru sheetrock.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot12.htm

[txinvestigator]

That said, as a CHL holder when would you need to penetrate a car door or such? I also believe my HP rounds will be just as effective as a FMJ if I find myself in the unlikely need to penetrate a barrier.

Only thing I can think of are road rage scenarios.

A couple weekends ago I was shooting on family land and decided to see how well JHP's can penetrate metal. I found a scrap piece of steel probably no more than 0.1" thick. Single shots (147gr 9mm JHP) were not going through. Only repeated shots to the same area were able to break through. I didn't do a side by side comparison with FMJ but I was really surprised at this. A car door would be even harder to penetrate. In the end I was kind of assured to think that over-penetration wouldn't be an issue with a well placed shot.

I am more concerned about failing to stop a BG with a FMJ round and perhaps OVER-penetrating than I am with shooting thru barriers.

Very good point. Didn't think about it like that.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot17.htm

As a LEO, I observed actual tests on actual cars. Cars make poor cover.

[Popshot]

In an emergency, complexity hinders performance.

This idea reminds me of some old advice to load a shotgun with alternating buckshot and slugs, for just the same situation of increasing penetration of barriers.

In a personal defense situation, barrier penetration may not be the wisest choice in tactics.

[Skiprr]

This idea reminds me of some old advice to load a shotgun with alternating buckshot and slugs...

Yep, Popshot, that one's been around for a long time. I think it was first suggested to me in the mid-'70s. Don't know that a shotgun stagger makes sense for home defense, either...although I do keep slugs on hand, just never loaded. (BTW, for those who keep a 12-gauge with big-hitting 3-inch shells at home, or shoot large caliber rifles, you might want to check out Knoxx products at http://www.knoxx.com/).

I wonder if the idea of buckshot/slug staggered loading is what led someone to the the JHP/FMJ idea?

Sort of on-topic, has anyone tried MagSafe ammunition (http://www.magsafeonline.com/magnum_performance.html)? It's been around a few years, and my local dealer carries a full line of it. It's pricey, and I've never had any first-hand information about its value and effectiveness. It sounds like a good choice, but so far I haven't waivered from my standard defensive rounds. Since the topic of aging ammunition came up elsewhere on the boards last week, I ran my supply of Speer GoldDots at the range Friday, then went and bought a new box...that's when I thought seriously again about the MagSafe. They're twice the price of the GoldDots, and I'd have to go throw about $60 worth of it at paper to get comfortable knowing where they shot compared to my sights. If they really are a better defensive round, it'd be worth it to switch.

[Paladin]

To stagger or not to stagger?

Depends on the caliber and what your trying to do. I stagger rounds in my .380 ACP, as .380ACP hollow points have less than optimal penetration.