Staggered Loading: JHP, FMJ, JHP...

[seamusTX]

Don't know that a shotgun stagger makes sense for home defense, either...

Slugs can go through brick walls. They might be OK for someone who lives in the country, but I live in a city and would not use them.

I'd go so far as to say that unless your target is a bear, or you're shooting downward, the slug is going to go through a wall.

- Jim

[Paladin]

That said, as a CHL holder when would you need to penetrate a car door or such?

How about when somebody is trying to shoot you from a car? Or run you over with a car? Or trying to carjack you?

[txinvestigator]

That said, as a CHL holder when would you need to penetrate a car door or such?

How about when somebody is trying to shoot you from a car? Or run you over with a car? Or trying to carjack you?

Shooting into a car is a risky proposition. Hit the driver and you have a 2 ton projectile that is not under anyone's control.

Shooting at at the driver of a vehicle moving towards you can result in the driver being incapacitated and not capable of avoiding you.

Either way, shooting the driver of a vehicle is risky, at best.

Being car-jacked? I might shoot thru the glass, depending on the circumstances.

[txinvestigator]

.380ACP hollow points have less than optimal penetration.

They why have them at all?

[txinvestigator]

Regarding cars, I just found this:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot3.htm

[kauboy]

Yeah, you pretty much don't want to be inside a car that is being fired apon. However, if a carjacking is taking place, you have a pretty good chance at hitting the perp if shooting through the door with minimal trajectory change. But, so does he...

[Thane]

Remember that barriers work both ways. If, by some freak chance, you wind up in a gun battle with various cover and concealment between you and your enemy, your cover/concealment will work both ways. If you have problems shooting through it, so will he. The one exception to this is if he's got a rifle or shotgun slugs; in which case, get the heck out of Dodge, if at all possible. (And if you CAN shoot through it, how can you guarantee you'll hit your attacker, and not little Sally next door?)
If you're being attacked by someone driving a car, and decide that taking out the driver then diving out of the way of the oncoming vehicle (a la Rambo) is your only option, remember that windshields deflect bullets -downward-; you have no guarantee that you'll even hit your attacker, much less take him out of commission. If you take out the tires, though, you've just slowed down the car (NOT stopped it), and impeded its mobility. I carry .45 ACP hollowpoint; the hollowpoint should theoretically take a nice circular chunk out of the tire, rapidly deflating it. This won't stop the car, but attempting to steer with a blown tire isn't that easy, much less the fine vehicular direction needed to hit a specific, moving target.
For FMJ.... its penetration is overrated. I found an Oldsmobile Toronado out in the desert once, that had been shot to pieces by hundreds of rounds of 9mm, .40, .223, and .308. Only one round penetrated -everything-, the .308. Engine block, frame, transmission, it didn't matter. The .223 made holes in everything except the frame and engine block, zipping right through the car. The pistol rounds... well... They would penetrate one layer of sheet metal, and not much more. They didn't even make terribly much of a dent on the next object in line.
Sure, if someone were hiding behind one of those doors, you could hit them, but unless the round then proceeded to take out their throat or similar "soft" areas, it wouldn't do them much harm.

Now, if you really, truly expect to get caught in gun battles involving brick walls and Buicks, and want to use a pistol, there IS a gun that MIGHT work for you. The CZ 52. The 7.62x25 round it fires is a high-velocity pistol round that puts a nice, neat little hole through most everything. There's not really any expanding ammo for it, I'm afraid, and it's known for overpenetration of just about everything. Ideal round for someone who shoots through car doors every weekday, and twice on Sunday. Just remember you're responsible for whatever your bullets hit.

I worry more about whether Joe Mugger is hopped up on drugs than if he hopped in his car. As unlikely as it is any given day for any of us to be robbed/attacked/etc., it's even more unlikely that we'll need some super-penetrating round. Most thugs will back down at the sight of a gun; very few will decided to engage in a prolonged gun battle; and of that few, not many are smart enough to be able to hide behind hard cover and plan out how to shoot back at the same time.

[Paladin]

.380ACP hollow points have less than optimal penetration.

They why have them at all?

I don't recommend .380's for serious use, but my P232 is one very fun gun to shoot.

[Roger Howard]

I am more concerned about failing to stop a BG with a FMJ round and perhaps OVER-penetrating than I am with shooting thru barriers.

[MrDrummy]

A quick aside...

I've been sitting here reading "The Box O' Truth" site for awhile now. As if I needed any more gun-related things to read...

[Velocity]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Expanding Full Metal Jacket (EFMJ) ammo from Federal yet.

I've taken to carrying this in my Kahr PM9 because JHP ammo tended to occasionally snag on the feed ramp, whereas standard "ball" ammo never did.

Part of the research that went into this round was regarding lack of initial penetration by JHPs, but it certainly seemed to clear up my reliability issue in my Kahr, and should have less OVERpenetration issues than ball FMJ would.

Article on EFMJ at http://www.ammoman.com/40_EP_DESC.htm

[Chris]

I think there is information missing here. Bullets don't "explode". They can fragment, but not thru sheetrock.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot12.htm

that's what happened. he was in a massage parlor with a few other officers. he said there was damage to the wall where the guy was, but no whole bullets went through. the sheetrock was torn up, but there weren't any clean holes. the guy was caught a little while later, and he had wounds where the some of the fragments hit him, but no actual bullet wounds; mostly just superficial stuff.

in those links, the guy is shooting straight into the sheetrock. when this officer was shooting, he was shooting from the end of a hallway, taking the best angle he could to get the guy. i'm speculating, because i didn't pry for a ton of detail at the time, but i suspect the bullets path through one layer of sheetrock was probably a few inches; in other words he was shooting at a steep angle into the sheetrock.

he said he was really surprised when he kept firing, but the guy kept poking his head out shooting. he was really surprised when the guy didn't have any holes in him after they caught him. after going back and looking, they saw that the bullets didn't make it out in one piece. i wasn't there and didn't see it, but i know he wouldn't lie to me.

[txinvestigator]

I think there is information missing here. Bullets don't "explode". They can fragment, but not thru sheetrock.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot12.htm

that's what happened. he was in a massage parlor with a few other officers. he said there was damage to the wall where the guy was, but no whole bullets went through. the sheetrock was torn up, but there weren't any clean holes. the guy was caught a little while later, and he had wounds where the some of the fragments hit him, but no actual bullet wounds; mostly just superficial stuff.

in those links, the guy is shooting straight into the sheetrock. when this officer was shooting, he was shooting from the end of a hallway, taking the best angle he could to get the guy. i'm speculating, because i didn't pry for a ton of detail at the time, but i suspect the bullets path through one layer of sheetrock was probably a few inches; in other words he was shooting at a steep angle into the sheetrock.

he said he was really surprised when he kept firing, but the guy kept poking his head out shooting. he was really surprised when the guy didn't have any holes in him after they caught him. after going back and looking, they saw that the bullets didn't make it out in one piece. i wasn't there and didn't see it, but i know he wouldn't lie to me.

Bullets also tend to "skip" when shot a a high angle. Although I don't think sheetrock would cause much skip effect. I suspect FMJ ammo would have performed the same.

[G.C.Montgomery]

txinvestigator is right on with respect to bullets in sheetrock. Having said that Chris, your second description of the incident makes the report far more credible.

Handgun bullets, regardless of caliber, fired at a shallow angle into a typical residential or commercial wall structure may breakup and fail to penetrate the wall. The reason for this is we are first penetrating several inches of what is basically a ceramic material. Even if the bullet survives that first penetration, it now is called upon to penetrate one or more 2x4's or worse, 18ga steel "2x4's" that often make up comercial and high-end residential wall structures these days. This, as Chris pointed out, is very different from shooting at an angle perpendicular to the face of the sheetrock.

[G.C.Montgomery]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Expanding Full Metal Jacket (EFMJ) ammo from Federal yet.

I've taken to carrying this in my Kahr PM9 because JHP ammo tended to occasionally snag on the feed ramp, whereas standard "ball" ammo never did.

Part of the research that went into this round was regarding lack of initial penetration by JHPs, but it certainly seemed to clear up my reliability issue in my Kahr, and should have less OVERpenetration issues than ball FMJ would.

Article on EFMJ at http://www.ammoman.com/40_EP_DESC.htm

Velocity, I don't know about anyone else, but the reason I didn't mention it is I actually think plain FMJ is better. I carred EFMJ for about a year in my LW Commanders because no hollowpoint would feed in the gun at the time and I considered FMJ a poor choice. It also helped that John Farnam himself had recommended it in a class I attended in 2002 at Sportsman's Outlet.

I later started checking out reports at AmmoLab.com and other independent sources who weren't involved in selling any particular brand of ammunition. Pow'RBall as it turns out is slightly better as far as bullets designed to feed like FMJ but perform like hollowpoints. Still, neither does as well against layered barriers as most modern hollowpoint ammunition or FMJ. But again, my general concern is avoiding overpenetration so I tend to stick with hollowpoints. In the one or two guns where feeding reliability is concerned, I might carry Pow'RBall but most of the time, I'll carry them with FMJ. I do this with the caveat that no matter what ammunition I use, I must remain aware of my threat/target and what it beyond it.