OC v. CC -- Hatfields v. McCoys All Over Again

[Mike1951]

Thanks, Keith! You made my point.

If you're not part of the vocal 1%, you don't matter.

[SA-TX]

Perhaps l'm dreaming but I think we can do all 3. Campus Carry and employer parking are well-known to members and probably less controversial. I just don't see a big fight about these particularly with some liberty minded new members joining the ranks. Even as an OC supporter I've said many times that it isn't the top priority. The aforementioned two affect many Texans including me (my employer has a no weapons policy). The reason to start OC now is that some groundwork is laid for the future if it cannot pass this time.

SA-TX

Open-carry will not pass this session. Employer parking lots will pass this session. Campus-carry has a good chance of passing this session. Obviously, these are my predictions.

...

Although I disagree with virtually everything flintnapper said about open-carry and those of us who remember what actually happened Texas in 1995-1997, as opposed to OC supporters who theorize about what will happen, he is right about one thing. Open-carry will not pass unless the groundwork is done and that means beginning in July, 2011. There is no time to do what is necessary to pass a bill this session and certainly not a bill that will protect tremendous gains we have made in the last 20 years. Waiting to the 11th hour to start calling for groundwork and help in passing OC is like a farmer refusing to cultivate his land, sew the seed, tend the fields, then walking out his back door and wondering why there is no crop to harvest. Two years ago I said that OC supporters need to organize a Texas-based, Texas-only organization right then so they would do the necessary groundwork, but that call was ignored.. I renewed the call a the end of the 2009 Texas Legislative Session and it too was ignored. So here we are again about one month from the beginning of the 2011 session and we're watching reruns of the "You're With Us, or You're Against Us" sitcom.

I disagree that you were ignored. As I said in a prior post, I think good faith attempts were made to form new Texas-based organizations. I haven't been a member of any so I have no first-hand knowledge of their activities but it may be fair to say that they haven't been as visible or successful as you or I might have hoped for.

TSRA and NRA properly stayed out of the OC issue. OC is not and has not been an issue NRA or TSRA members want us to pursue, so we don't. This fact seems to really anger OC supporters and I cannot understand why. Do you really expect either organization to spend money and political capital on an issue that a very small minority of the Members support? (Remember also that some members are opposed to OC.) If so, I'd be very interested in hearing the justification for ignoring the will of our members. The NRA and RSRA represent the wishes of the Members who shoulder the financial burden of defending the Second Amendment. And if TSRA or NRA were to support OC, which flag should they fly -- licensed open-carry or unlicensed open-carry? OC supporters can't even reach a consensus on this very critical distinction.

I wouldn't expect an organziation to pursue an agenda the most of its member didn't support. I'll answer your more recent polling question: if TSRA had a way to securely and in a cost effective way poll its members and if that poll indicated that the majority of member opposed OC, I would NOT expect the organization to pursue it. Whether or not TSRA should actively oppose a bill offered by others is a more difficult question. This might depend on exactly what the members were asked and how they responded. I suspect that a licensed OC bill that does NOT pose a large risk of additional 30.06 signs would garner the greatest level of support but I wouldn't presume to say exactly how high. Your 60% against / 40% for is actually pretty encourgaing because, as you also mentioned, many people haven't really considered it and may simply be reacting to defend what they do know. For me a poll that indicated less than majority support means that OC supporters need to continue to try to pursuade our fellow 2A advocates and we shouldn't expect TSRA to take up that fight until the numbers improve. I certainly do support taking that poll under the conditions described.

I have never opposed OC and I have never taken a single step to thwart OC in Austin. In fact, I have offered suggestions for promoting and passing OC that have been ignored. If the membership of any organization I represent decides it wants OC to pass, then I will put aside my concerns and will work for its passage, making sure any bill that passes expands rather than narrows Texans' gun rights.

While I take issue with the "ignored" conclusion, I appreciate your continued dialog on the issue.

SA-TX

[philip964]

I have a lot of liberal and middle of the road friends who believe we should be like England or Mexico where guns are banned. They do not believe we should be allowed to concealed carry, have a gun in our car or have a gun at home. They believe guns are bad and they are the primary reason for violence in America. They are Texas born and bred.

Imagine what it is like in places like California or New Jersey. They want to be able to stop us from concealed carry, having a gun in our car and having a gun at home, as they might some day visit here. They dont like hollow point ammunition, scary guns, guns not locked in metal boxes or guns that are loaded with bullets. To them all people who have a gun are evil and should be put in jail, because any day now we're going to kill someone.

These people are activist, they contribute money, march, write letters, and generally make pests of themselves.

I don't want to pick a fight with those people here in Texas or in the rest of the country. They are already looking in our direction because of the concealed carry for 18 year old's. Its made the national press, if you can believe.

I would much rather see a reduction in the criminality for accidentally carrying where you are not supposed to, allowing concealed carry on college campuses or maybe increasing the length of our licenses.

No one cares about concealed carry, because it is concealed. They don't know and so they don't care. If unlicensed open carry is allowed, look out. We may lose all the ground we have gained, because this would get a lot of these people on their high horses. People get excited about something they see and they will notice open carry.

We gained so much when conceal carry was allowed. Now everyone in public could be carrying, the criminals don't know, who is or who is not. I don't know about Texas, but I know in Florida it has made a big difference in the level of random crime after it was passed.

I love Texas more than ever

[flintknapper]

I have a lot of liberal and middle of the road friends who believe we should be like England or Mexico where guns are banned. They do not believe we should be allowed to concealed carry, have a gun in our car or have a gun at home. They believe guns are bad and they are the primary reason for violence in America. They are Texas born and bred.

Imagine what it is like in places like California or New Jersey. They want to be able to stop us from concealed carry, having a gun in our car and having a gun at home, as they might some day visit here. They dont like hollow point ammunition, scary guns, guns not locked in metal boxes or guns that are loaded with bullets. To them all people who have a gun are evil and should be put in jail, because any day now we're going to kill someone.

These people are activist, they contribute money, march, write letters, and generally make pests of themselves.

I don't want to pick a fight with those people here in Texas or in the rest of the country. They are already looking in our direction because of the concealed carry for 18 year old's. Its made the national press, if you can believe.

I would much rather see a reduction in the criminality for accidentally carrying where you are not supposed to, allowing concealed carry on college campuses or maybe increasing the length of our licenses.

No one cares about concealed carry, because it is concealed. They don't know and so they don't care. If unlicensed open carry is allowed, look out. We may lose all the ground we have gained, because this would get a lot of these people on their high horses. People get excited about something they see and they will notice open carry.

We gained so much when conceal carry was allowed. Now everyone in public could be carrying, the criminals don't know, who is or who is not. I don't know about Texas, but I know in Florida it has made a big difference in the level of random crime after it was passed.

I love Texas more than ever

Oh....I wouldn't worry about it too much.

They'll never bother us...as long as we keep (hiding here in the back of the bus, being quiet).

[PATHFINDER]

An act of the Legislature deleting paragraph (a) of section 46.035 would appear to resolve the display issue in Texas. It is strange that the only persons in Texas presently confined to wearing their handguns concealed are gang-bangers, active duty criminals, certain prohibited previous offenders , and those licensed under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411 of the Government Code.

My understanding is that the proposed bill to permit concealed carry on campus provides for concealed carry only. The concern that OC activism is going to adversely impact licensed concealed carry and the overall right to carry in Texas are not indicated by the positive response received by active OC'ers in states like Colorado. My own OC experience in Colorado Springs has been episodic, brief, and well received. Very few people have a lifestyle routine that is condusive to prolonged periods of OC.

[baldeagle]

An act of the Legislature deleting paragraph (a) of section 46.035 would appear to resolve the display issue in Texas. It is strange that the only persons in Texas presently confined to wearing their handguns concealed are gang-bangers, active duty criminals, certain prohibited previous offenders , and those licensed under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411 of the Government Code.

My understanding is that the proposed bill to permit concealed carry on campus provides for concealed carry only. The concern that OC activism is going to adversely impact licensed concealed carry and the overall right to carry in Texas are not indicated by the positive response received by active OC'ers in states like Colorado. My own OC experience in Colorado Springs has been episodic, brief, and well received. Very few people have a lifestyle routine that is condusive to prolonged periods of OC.

Colorado is Colorado. Texas is Texas. What works in Colorado may or may not work in Texas.

[TexasRedneck]

Colorado is Colorado. Texas is Texas. What works in Colorado may or may not work in Texas.

Does that therefore negate the need to try for it here? AZ seems to be doing well with it as well.

[The Annoyed Man]

I just want to reiterate that I'm not saying TSRA should cyberpoll its members. I'm only suggesting that technical feasibility is a non issue.

I have no opinion one way or the other as to the wisdom of it, although Charles does raise some very interesting "what ifs" that make me say "hmmmmm...."

[Oldgringo]

i'm growing quite weary of this schism between the OC and CC factions of 2A RKBA supporters in Texas.

"A house divided can not stand", who said that?

[baldeagle]

Colorado is Colorado. Texas is Texas. What works in Colorado may or may not work in Texas.

Does that therefore negate the need to try for it here? AZ seems to be doing well with it as well.

Of course not. (I wrote all sorts of stuff here and then deleted it all. Everything that can be said about this has already been said. I'm done with it.)

[flintknapper]

i'm growing quite weary of this schism between the OC and CC factions of 2A RKBA supporters in Texas.

"A house divided can not stand", who said that?

Matt 12:25

And ACME demolition.

Both were correct.

[G.A. Heath]

I too will acknowledge that a "cyber poll" is feasible, however it would require a database of all TSRA membership numbers to be put on a computer that is connected to the web with services that can be breached. This would make it possible for organisations who are against us to illegally crack the server and learn EXACTLY how many members there are and how many had voted which would give them a good indicator of how many are actually active. This is not information you want the Brady campaign to have, nor any of their state level associates in Texas. There are other concerns as well however this is one of the more serious concerns in my opinion.

[Bullwhip]

And by the way, arming felons is just plain stupid. I would be in favor of reviewing the definitions of "violent" and "felon," but if someone did time for multiple armed robberies and then gets an early release for good behavior or overcrowding, arming that person is just all the way to the bone idiotic.

I don't think you understand how many "good people" are technically felons.

Why don't you call up Tom Bean, former Texas gun dealer and outstanding citizen, and ask him about felon status? G. Gordon Liddy?

Nothing stops any felon from being armed. Might as well pass a law against breaking laws. Bad men are bad with or without guns. Good men are good with or without guns. Good men with bad pasts should be free to start again.

[Dave2]

And by the way, arming felons is just plain stupid. I would be in favor of reviewing the definitions of "violent" and "felon," but if someone did time for multiple armed robberies and then gets an early release for good behavior or overcrowding, arming that person is just all the way to the bone idiotic.

I don't think you understand how many "good people" are technically felons.

According to the Wikipedia entry on the NFA, anyone who has a gun that "can be fired from within a wallet holster" is committing a felony (it's listed as a destructive device). Technically, all guns fit that description if you can find a big enough wallet.

[Mike1951]

And by the way, arming felons is just plain stupid. I would be in favor of reviewing the definitions of "violent" and "felon," but if someone did time for multiple armed robberies and then gets an early release for good behavior or overcrowding, arming that person is just all the way to the bone idiotic.

I don't think you understand how many "good people" are technically felons.

According to the Wikipedia entry on the NFA, anyone who has a gun that "can be fired from within a wallet holster" is committing a felony (it's listed as a destructive device). Technically, all guns fit that description if you can find a big enough wallet.

The NFA regulates those wallet holsters designed to allow the pistol to be fired while still concealed in the holster. These are recognized by a cutout or relief to provide access to the trigger. It does not cover those wallet holsters that merely store the pistol.

The gun or the holster alone are fine, but if you have both you would be in violation.