Self Def Situation

[Keith]

I know there is already a few posts about the AZ shooting and what the media thinks about gun control. I wanted to take a different approach and talk about this from a CCW owner. I think its important that we do this. I have learned a ton by just reading certain situations on this board and how I would react.

So put yourself there. The perp starts shooting. First off there are going to be people running everywhere and its going to be crazy!! You pull your weapon because your family has decided to hit the ground and now you have to defend them. Its going to be very hard to not hit a innocent victim but you get a clear shot. You are able to make a good hit. What now.

I was thinking the smartest thing to do was put your GUN AWAY. Police are coming and you are very likely to be shot by holding your gun if not tackled by other people because they think your the shooter. Another CCW may also shoot you.

What if you tackle the suspect and then pull your gun to hold him down waiting for police. Again be very aware of whats going on as again you could be shot just by the confusen.

I carry a 10mm alot so overpenetration is something that I allways think about. Even the 9mm went all the way through. Are we going to seriously think about whats behind the perp in a active shooting or are we just going to shoot. I have allways had a problem of finding a place to shoot were I can be moving and shooting or shoot a moving target. If someone has a place or range were I can practice this please let me know!

Just a few points I thought of to get conversation going so we can again all learn. Take Care Keith. (practice practice practice) if we need to be able to make that critical shot without hurting anyone else.

[RPB]

Over penetration seems to be the question partly.

I think about this even in my home,

I choose ammo which is likely to expand and dump energy without wasting energy passing through.

As far as "stray" shots ... my front wall is brick, side and rear are siding.

I think also angles, if I'm on the ground shooting upwards ... standing on a chair beside a door shooting down ...

Doesn't hurt to think ahead, but when a situation actually occurs .. situations vary ... the best laid plans of mice and men often go to rice ... or awry ... or something

[G.A. Heath]

I may be in the minority, or I may be seen as cold hearted, but I don't carry a gun to protect others. I would have taken those I care about and attempted to flee the scene or find cover. The only way I would take action with my firearm is if the killer enters my immediate threat zone. By this I mean he would have to be in a position to threaten me or mine directly, and only then will I engage him. Everyone else decided not to be armed and they can live, or die, with the consequences of that decision.

[RPB]

I may be in the minority, or I may be seen as cold hearted, but I don't carry a gun to protect others. I would have taken those I care about and attempted to flee the scene or find cover. The only way I would take action with my firearm is if the killer enters my immediate threat zone. By this I mean he would have to be in a position to threaten me or mine directly, and only then will I engage him. Everyone else decided not to be armed and they can live, or die, with the consequences of that decision.

That's pretty much me too. If a train passes by and doesn't threaten me, I'm ok with it, if you are on the tracks, you'd be wise to move, if my kid is ... I'll take care of it as best I can. If you can't move and need help, I'll assess the situation and let you know what I decide. (Situations vary, train might be on the other set of tracks)

[74novaman]

G.A., I'm torn but lean in the same direction. I'm not a cop. I don't have backup, or a vest on, or get paid to protect others. If I was injured or killed, the financial and emotional burden on my family would be tremendous.

I carry to protect myself and my family. Everyone else has access to the same news reports I do. If they don't feel they need to carry to be safe, they can live with that decision. I'm not sure my wife would appreciate the prospect of my dying trying to save someone that for all I know, doesn't even think I should be allowed to carry a gun.

Just my .02

[Keith]

I agree also. Thats why I went with the situation were you dont have a choice. The family is on the ground and this guy is very close. Not sure im going to be able to get them to move due to fear. I def see your point though.

[cubbyjg]

Unless the shooter is very near me, i wont engage. Yes other innocent people might be shot, but like others have said, i am not a PO. Below are some comments made regarding the shooting (http://ireport.cnn.com/blogs/ireport-bl ... ona?hpt=T2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

"Some readers were surprised that, considering Arizona’s lenient gun laws that the gunman wasn’t shot by someone. disgirl said “I do NOT understand why no one shot this guy. I've lived in Arizona and Texas. Guess what? They carry more firearms openly in Arizona. My poor Texan husband thought a record store on Mill Ave was being held up because some of the patrons were discussing guns and had them out. pingpaul said “Just wonder how many people in the audience had concealed handguns. Why did they not react?” and 113162 added, “I wonder ‘where did all the gun-totin’ Arizonans go?’ I expected the perp to be met with a hail of bullets.”

These people are obviously the ones who dont carry because if they did, they would understand why a CC permit holder might not have engaged and why a "hail of bullets" wasnt unleased. IMO, in these types of situations, there are just way too many people and the risk is too high for me to engage.

[jamisjockey]

12 wounded. 6 dead. Had he not been stopped during his reload, he would have killed and wounded more.


HE IS ALREADY ON A MURDEROUS RAMPAGE. Wounding one or two people by accident is worth the risk, vs. him continuing to kill or wound more people.

There is right, and then there is right.

My first thoughts are to protect my family. If I can get them out without engaging the shooter, I'm sorry, but they come first. If my family is not there, or I have to put myself between them and the shooter and engage, I will engage. I will do my best not to hit innocent bystanders.
But considering the high cost of these rampages, I'm sorry, no.
Family first.
Shooter second.
Innocent bystanders, third.
I'm a big boy, I'll deal with the consequences after.



Oh, and for the OP:
After the shoot, make an assessment. Any more threats? If not, holstering is probably the fastest way to not be shot by a LEO. Follow LEO commands. Don't think because you're one of the good guys, that they won't be putting a foot on the back of your neck and handcuffs on you.

[A-R]

I have allways had a problem of finding a place to shoot were I can be moving and shooting or shoot a moving target. If someone has a place or range were I can practice this please let me know!

Answering a different part of your original OP ..... if you're in Austin area, try Best of West range in Liberty Hill. Regardless of where you're located, you should be able to find an IDPA match somewhere. Not "training" per se, but at least you get to shoot while moving and occassionally shoot at moving targets.

[mbw]

Ya’ll are overlooking something here.

According to the reports that I have read, there was a CHL involved in the take down. One of the three people who disabled the shooter was a college student with a CHL. He is 22 years old and was wearing his weapon at the time. When he was interviewed about the incident he was asked why he did not use his weapon and replied “It was not necessary, we already had him down and had taken the weapon away from him”.

In my opinion, that was a superb example of how to use a weapon in a situation like this.

Don’t, unless you have no other choice! The weapon should be a last resort, not the first.

It is also very interesting to me how the media by and large has completely avoided mentioning what this young man did to help subdue the active shooter. And of course there is no mention of the fact that he was armed and did not shoot anyone.

[shootthesheet]

If I was in the immediate area I would stop him without doubt. Especially since my family was there. If I was a distance away I would have to consider if I could get a shot or shots at him without hurting someone. When/If I got the chance to stop it I would take it. I have gone back and forth about this but every single time I see the pictures of the victims of one of these nuts I move closer to deciding I would engage the guy even if I didn't shoot him in hopes he would abandon the act at least. I just don't think I could live with myself if I didn't and could have. Now, I am no hero and don't care to be one. I will make sure I have COVER and not just concealment. Something hefty enough to stop a bullet fired into it or at least be in a position to minimize effective return fire.

No, a CHL does not make us LEOs nor does it require us to risk our lives to stop something like this. It doesn't and should never as far as law is concerned. The decision to do something is with me and I choose to try to save lives if I have a chance. I am willing to risk injury or death and understand that is more probable if I engage rather than run. I have found myself carrying a mag of frangible ammo in order to try to limit ricochets for that reason. I figure they may not be as effective as JHPs so I may need to put even more rounds out in order stop the nut.

I would not look down on any CCW who could act and didn't though. I understand that is a personal decision they are willing to deal with where I don't think I could. I might feel different if it was my sons and wife or other family member or a friend. Hopefully none of us will ever be put in a position to have to finally decide.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

I am with shootthesheet. I cannot stand by and watch innocent people getting murdered and not try to stop it if I can. I do not carry thinking that I am a LEO. I know that I am not. I have a duty to my family but I feel that I also have a duty to humanity. I cannot let someone go that needs help. Its not in me. I am not looking to be a hero but I know I would not be able to live with myself knowing that I could have done something and didn't and more people got hurt or killed. If I or my family was the ones that needed help I would want someone to help us.

To each his own.

[Scott in Houston]

I am with shootthesheet. I cannot stand by and watch innocent people getting murdered and not try to stop it if I can. I do not carry thinking that I am a LEO. I know that I am not. I have a duty to my family but I feel that I also have a duty to humanity. I cannot let someone go that needs help. Its not in me. I am not looking to be a hero but I know I would not be able to live with myself knowing that I could have done something and didn't and more people got hurt or killed. If I or my family was the ones that needed help I would want someone to help us.

To each his own.

I don't know why, but in my head, I have already decided that I could watch a robbery go down and not engage even if I think the bad guys might kill a cashier/teller/victim. I would hate it, but in that scenario I'm with the "only engage when I'm directly threatened" crowd.

Now, with a mass killing scenario like Luby's or this AZ killer, no way I could sit by and only engage when threatened. That type of evil must be stopped by good men.

I think the line for me is the motive of the bad guy. If it's purely to kill, I'd engage likely. I couldn't live myself if I didn't. I can't imagine how I'd feel if I just froze, ran, or hid. I'd feel very guilty for all those deaths I could have stopped.
If the bad guy just wants to steal stuff, and there's a "chance" for a killing in the process, I can live with the chance and not engage.

[Zoomie]

Remember, evil prevails because good men fail to act. Not because cops fail to act, or the U.N. fails to act.

"The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight is a miserable creature, who has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

At some point you have to ask yourself, for what would I risk my life? To save your own life? Well, of course. To save the life of a family member? I hope so. That of a friend? maybe. How about the lives of a dozen strangers? A hundred?

Do what you will, but remember the line from "Brave heart "

"Ay, fight and you may die, run and you’ll live. At least a while. And dying in your beds many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance..."