Question regarding firearms in the workplace

[rmr1923]

i don't ever intend to carry while at work, but i was looking at our employee handbook out of curiosity recently to see what their policy is on firearms. this is, in its entirety, what our employee handbook says under a section titled "Firearms":

"The possession by employees of firearms, ammunition, explosives, or weapons is strictly prohibited on any Company premises or property, unless specifically authorized by an officer of the Company."

we were told in my CHL class that "premises" normally only include the physical building and doesn't include parking lots. my company leases 4 floors of a high rise with a parking garage located next to the building. would this policy prohibit me from keeping a handgun hidden in my truck while parked in the garage? for obvious reasons i'd prefer to not ask my boss and draw unwanted attention to myself. i don't feel like i need to keep a gun in the truck while at work, but i rarely go straight from work to the house, i'll usually make a stop or 2 along the way to run errands and things like that so it would be inconvenient for me to have to run home, grab my gun, and then head back out into evening traffic.

my thoughts are that with the word "property" thrown in there in addition to "premises", that the company policy would prohibit keeping a firearm in my truck in the parking garage. any thoughts on this?

[Scott in Houston]

Do they own the parking garage? If it's a shared one, I don't think they can police or enforce that, but I"m not sure.
Essentially, legally, you're fine, but your employer can terminate you for anything they see fit really. Do you know anyone else who works there that is like-minded? I'd see if you can discover another CHL employee and get more intel. I would not ask your employer unless you have the right kind of relationship with your boss, but it sounds like you don't.

Personally, and this is just me, I'm not advising you do this, but I would go ahead and keep in my truck. How would they ever know?
What could happen that would get it discovered and endanger your employment?

[Teamless]

Your manual is telling you that if caught, you can be fired. Regardless of the definition of "premises" or "property", however, your manual does not, by statute, make it an offense if you carry a weapon- in other words, they can discipline you, but cannot have you arrested for carrying.

As far as leaving your weapon in your vehicle, they could extrapolate premises to include parking (hopefully the parking lot bill gets passed and this is no longer an issue), but in the mean time, if you leave it in your vehicle, how would they know?

My wife has the same issue, her parking lot is right in front of their building. they do not allow firearms on company property, however she carries it in her car. Unless they search her car, how would they find out?

[RECIT]

They would have no probable cause to search your vehicle unless you gave them some...

I think they have their ducks in a row so to speak. The only get out might be that your company is not the only company in that building or garage. I am assuming it is not a public type garage or is there any retail type business that shares the garage? If so then I'm sure they can not regulate customers vehicles too, but if private I think they got you pinned down from a discipline stand point but not legally as stated above.

[rmr1923]

about 10 other companies lease office space in the building, so the garage is shared only among employees who work for companies that are located in the building. and there is no retail type business that shares the garage. there are 'visitor' parking spots for bank customers (bank in the lobby), but the garage isn't open to the public otherwise. anyone who parks in there has to either have a keycard to get in or out, or get a coin/token from the bank or whichever company they're here to see in order to get out of the garage.

as far as talking to my boss about it, i have a pretty good relationship with him. we bull and talk football in the breakroom a couple times a week, but like i said, i'd rather not ask him directly and draw unwanted attention to myself because i don't know how he feels about hunting and guns in general. i know there are quite a few hunters around the office, if i catch one of them in the break room i might broach the subject of CHLs and maybe get some info there.

i agree that they would have no probable cause to search my truck (if they even know which truck in the garage is mine), and i have a good working relationship with all of my coworkers and boss so i don't feel like they'd use this as a reason to terminate me or anything like that if they were to find out i had a gun in the truck. my coworkers all know i'm a hunter, but i haven't told anyone that i've applied for my CHL or that i carry a gun in the truck wherever i go.

as for the "parking lot bill" that one poster referred to, when i took my CHL class in December, my instructor said he's pretty certain it'll pass. if it does, how would that affect me if i already can't be charged with a crime for having a gun in my truck in the garage? would it make it illegal for my employer to terminate me if they were to discover it? i'll admit i haven't done any research into this bill so i don't know a thing about it.

[MasterOfNone]

In determining what is "company property," you have to consider the element of control. Property that is under the control of the company is considered company property. But it sounds like the garage is under the control of the landlord and the company just pays for access to it. Consider the parallel to apartment parking lots without assigned parking.
But the bottom line is - and this is the case with practically any employer restrictions - an employer does not need a cause to fire an employee. If the employer knew you had a gun in your truck, even with the parking lot bill, they could simply fire you for any other reason. That is why so many employee protections are just lip service. The only place this would really be a factor is if they wanted to deny unemployment benefits by claiming you were fired "for cause."
Your best bet is to just keep it quiet regardless of any interpretation of the policy.

[stroo]

Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

[alvins]

our policy its very similar and i work for a college. however the garages and such are owned by another company. i just keep my mouth shut.out of the 200 people i work with about 80 of them talk about guns and stuff at work and it doesnt seem to be an issue.i dont know anyone who carries into work but im sure someone does.

[wninja]

I might be one of the backwards thinkers who doesn't care what the employee manual says. I would much rather have my life than my job. At the very least, I would keep something in my car. If it is not breaking a law and consequently causing my CHL to be revoked, I'm going to carry.

[b322da]

They would have no probable cause to search your vehicle unless you gave them some...

I think they have their ducks in a row so to speak. The only get out might be that your company is not the only company in that building or garage. I am assuming it is not a public type garage or is there any retail type business that shares the garage? If so then I'm sure they can not regulate customers vehicles too, but if private I think they got you pinned down from a discipline stand point but not legally as stated above.

Just as an idle question, since when does an employer need "probable cause" to search your car? If, for example, an employer requires a thorough search of every vehicle entering his property, does he need "probable cause" to search your car? Is the constitutional concept of probable cause even remotely applicable here? Might we be confusing the 4th Amendment with an employer's regulations applicable to his employees. It is also easy here to apply definitions to words like "property" and "premises" applicable to statutory provisions to the employer's regulations -- two very different things.

The repetitive advice here to just ignore the employer's rules might encourage some employers to tighten up their regulations about certain things about which they feel strongly, and make the search of your vehicle at any time a condition of your employment.

Of course you would quit your job. No problem.

Elmo
Just a devil's advocate

[boba]

Your manual is telling you that if caught, you can be fired. Regardless of the definition of "premises" or "property", however, your manual does not, by statute, make it an offense if you carry a weapon- in other words, they can discipline you, but cannot have you arrested for carrying.

This.

The language does not meet the 30.06 requirements, but they can fire you for violating company policy. However, because Texas is an "at will" state, they can fire you for almost any reason, except those explicitly prohibited by law or contract.

[alvins]

im not convinced most employers have a right to search your car without a warrant or such.

[boba]

Is the constitutional concept of probable cause even remotely applicable here?

No. A LEO can search your vehicle without your consent under certain circumstances, and you can go to jail if you interfere with the search. However, a private employer doesn't have legal authority to search your vehicle without your consent. (They can refuse entry if you don't consent, but so can your local Booger King.)

im not convinced most employers have a right to search your car without a warrant or such.

Unless you work for a law enforcement agency, how would your employer get a search warrant?

[RECIT]

They would have no probable cause to search your vehicle unless you gave them some...

I think they have their ducks in a row so to speak. The only get out might be that your company is not the only company in that building or garage. I am assuming it is not a public type garage or is there any retail type business that shares the garage? If so then I'm sure they can not regulate customers vehicles too, but if private I think they got you pinned down from a discipline stand point but not legally as stated above.

Just as an idle question, since when does an employer need "probable cause" to search your car? If, for example, an employer requires a thorough search of every vehicle entering his property, does he need "probable cause" to search your car? Is the constitutional concept of probable cause even remotely applicable here? Might we be confusing the 4th Amendment with an employer's regulations applicable to his employees. It is also easy here to apply definitions to words like "property" and "premises" applicable to statutory provisions to the employer's regulations -- two very different things.

The repetitive advice here to just ignore the employer's rules might encourage some employers to tighten up their regulations about certain things about which they feel strongly, and make the search of your vehicle at any time a condition of your employment.

Of course you would quit your job. No problem.

Elmo
Just a devil's advocate

I hear and understand your point, but at anytime your employer suspects drug/alcohol use at the work place they have probable cause to administer a random drug test if it is in their company policy. I would assume the same would apply for suspicion of a firearm on company property and there for require some search, questions, discipline possibly. If they think you have one in your desk they can ask you to open your desk can they not? I see no difference in "property" from a desk to a vehicle in a parking lot all being on company property.

My father was/is restricted from carrying at or on work premises, so he used to decline the secure parking of the lot at his building and opted to park on the side street adjacent to his office window. Not on company premises, not the closest spot to the door, but he could watch his truck from his window and keep his sidearm in his vehicle while at work. Now his company issued him a company car and that is considered premises/property of the company, so he is unarmed while at work

[lonewolf]

If there are multiple companies in the building and the parking area/garage is open to any employees of any company doing business there, then I don't see that the employer can restrict anything in the parking lot. They don't control it. I could be a little off base with that, but not far.....