Self Def Situation

[PeteCamp]

I have a very strong opinion on this issue based on working with several folks who second guessed their actions after the fact and found themselves wanting.

First....There are things worse than dying. Living with what you could and should have done and didn't, can be much worse than a funeral - for everybody involved.

Second....It saddens me when we worry about what impact doing the morally right thing is going to have on my finances. Go back and re-read my first comment.

Third...For those who just cannot get the "CHL holder / LEO dilemma" or the ramifications of having a deadly weapon at your side out of their minds, I have a suggestion. If you are involved in a situation such as in Arizona, throw your weapon and CHL on the ground. Then go and do the right thing.

Do it regardless of the risk involved. Do it to the best of your ability to preserve your own and innocent life. Do it because if you do not, you will have a thousand dark, lonely nights to condemn and second guess yourself. Do it because the faces of the innocent will return to haunt you night after night. If having a CHL makes us hesitate doing the right thing, IMHO, we should toss it in the trash. Do the right thing, trust in God, and let the chips fall where they may. CHL, firearm, or not.

Sorry rant off.

[wally775]

PeteCamp said

I have a very strong opinion on this issue based on working with several folks who second guessed their actions after the fact and found themselves wanting.

First....There are things worse than dying. Living with what you could and should have done and didn't, can be much worse than a funeral - for everybody involved.

Second....It saddens me when we worry about what impact doing the morally right thing is going to have on my finances. Go back and re-read my first comment.

Third...For those who just cannot get the "CHL holder / LEO dilemma" or the ramifications of having a deadly weapon at your side out of their minds, I have a suggestion. If you are involved in a situation such as in Arizona, throw your weapon and CHL on the ground. Then go and do the right thing.

Do it regardless of the risk involved. Do it to the best of your ability to preserve your own and innocent life. Do it because if you do not, you will have a thousand dark, lonely nights to condemn and second guess yourself. Do it because the faces of the innocent will return to haunt you night after night. If having a CHL makes us hesitate doing the right thing, IMHO, we should toss it in the trash. Do the right thing, trust in God, and let the chips fall where they may. CHL, firearm, or not.

Sorry rant off.

Very well said. Well spoken indeed.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

I have a very strong opinion on this issue based on working with several folks who second guessed their actions after the fact and found themselves wanting.

First....There are things worse than dying. Living with what you could and should have done and didn't, can be much worse than a funeral - for everybody involved.

Second....It saddens me when we worry about what impact doing the morally right thing is going to have on my finances. Go back and re-read my first comment.

Third...For those who just cannot get the "CHL holder / LEO dilemma" or the ramifications of having a deadly weapon at your side out of their minds, I have a suggestion. If you are involved in a situation such as in Arizona, throw your weapon and CHL on the ground. Then go and do the right thing.

Do it regardless of the risk involved. Do it to the best of your ability to preserve your own and innocent life. Do it because if you do not, you will have a thousand dark, lonely nights to condemn and second guess yourself. Do it because the faces of the innocent will return to haunt you night after night. If having a CHL makes us hesitate doing the right thing, IMHO, we should toss it in the trash. Do the right thing, trust in God, and let the chips fall where they may. CHL, firearm, or not.

Sorry rant off.

exactly

I especially agree with this

If having a CHL makes us hesitate doing the right thing, IMHO, we should toss it in the trash.

[G.A. Heath]

Lets say you rush into action during an active shooter situation, you see a man holding a gun and draw your weapon ...
Bad scenario #1: You shoot and kill the man who has just taken the weapon from the shooter.
Bad scenario #2: You shoot and kill a fellow CHL, or even LEO, who has just shot the shooter.
Bad scenario #3: Another CHL, or even LEO, sees you with your weapon causing them to shoot and kill you.

Do we need to go on? Rushing into a decision when deadly force is in use is a bad idea. You can't load a save game and start over to do it right. Joe Zamudio was ready to shoot the man that was holding the weapon, fortunately he thought things out before drawing his weapon. Based on reports, one thing that made him hesitate was the fact that the slide of the killer's weapon was locked back.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

Rushing into a decision when deadly force is in use is a bad idea

So, why do you carry?

[Beiruty]

Rushing into a decision when deadly force is in use is a bad idea

So, why do you carry?

Good catch! It is easy to Id an active shooter shoting civilians.In AZ the armed guy Joe, came late to the party and found a struggle to rstrain the shooter. Thete was no need to draw and shoot back as the shooter is already down.
It is the same dilema LEOs are facing and this is why the shout commands and try to disarm the shooter or anyone armed.

[boba]

Some people say a CHL is not a Batman license. That's a double edged sword and cuts both ways.

[Beiruty]

I would say like this, if some CHLer runs away from a gunfire, He is most likely shot dead. One has to think about it and train to counter fire with fire, otherwise, why one carry a gun, just to retreat and lock himself in corner and stay stil waiting for the shooter coming for a kill?

[cbr600]

I would say like this, if some CHLer runs away from a gunfire, He is most likely shot dead.

Do you have any data to support that? For example, in the Tucson shooting, what was the survival rate of people who ran away from the gunfire?

I may be mistaken, but from what I have read of shootings, running away is one of the more effective tactics, provided escape is possible. (e.g. not trapped in a fire-hazard school with insufficient escape routes)

[baldeagle]

Lets say you rush into action during an active shooter situation, you see a man holding a gun and draw your weapon ...
Bad scenario #1: You shoot and kill the man who has just taken the weapon from the shooter.
Bad scenario #2: You shoot and kill a fellow CHL, or even LEO, who has just shot the shooter.
Bad scenario #3: Another CHL, or even LEO, sees you with your weapon causing them to shoot and kill you.

Do we need to go on? Rushing into a decision when deadly force is in use is a bad idea. You can't load a save game and start over to do it right. Joe Zamudio was ready to shoot the man that was holding the weapon, fortunately he thought things out before drawing his weapon. Based on reports, one thing that made him hesitate was the fact that the slide of the killer's weapon was locked back.

No one is talking about rushing into a decision. What Joe Zamudio is describing is assessing the situation. You'd better be able to do that in any deadly force encounter, whether it's one attacker or 100. Zamudio did exactly the right thing. He heard the shots and headed toward them. He closed on the attacker while assessing the situation. He correctly analyzed that the slide was locked back and there was no deadly threat. Then he realized that the man with the gun was not the attacker and rushed to assist the ones who had taken the shooter down.

When I wrote that I would take the shot, I meant exactly that. I did not mean I would run in shooting indiscriminately at anything that moved. That's what murderers do. I'll state it again so I am perfectly clear. If I am involved in a massacre like Tucson or Virginia Tech, I will run toward the sound of the guns, just as Joe Zamudio did. I will use cover and tactical advantage to allow me to assess the situation. If I positively identify the shooter and I can see he's holding and firing a weapon at defenseless people, he is going down. But I"m not going to shoot the first guy I see holding a gun. I'm going to shoot the first guy I see shooting other people indiscriminately. If I have loved ones with me, I will get them to safety any way I can, but I will not be going with them. I will be going to take out the killer.

If others believe they should run away, then by all means run away. Get your family to safety. But I will not allow innocent people to be killed while I have the means to end the murders.

[srothstein]

I would say like this, if some CHLer runs away from a gunfire, He is most likely shot dead. One has to think about it and train to counter fire with fire, otherwise, why one carry a gun, just to retreat and lock himself in corner and stay stil waiting for the shooter coming for a kill?

I don't know about CHL's, but a professor I know was working on a study of school shootings. He told me that the initial outcome shows the best chance of survival is to actively resist allowing the shooter to enter the room with the second best survival being fleeing. The worst thing is to just cower and hide. There were not enough people who actively fought the shooter by hand to produce a statistically valid response. Also insufficient data on armed citizen response though police response seems to produce suicides fairly rapidly.

[baldeagle]

I would say like this, if some CHLer runs away from a gunfire, He is most likely shot dead.

Do you have any data to support that? For example, in the Tucson shooting, what was the survival rate of people who ran away from the gunfire?

I may be mistaken, but from what I have read of shootings, running away is one of the more effective tactics, provided escape is possible. (e.g. not trapped in a fire-hazard school with insufficient escape routes)

Running away is an effective tactic for defenseless people. Some of the people who survived the Lubys shooting did just that. They broke the windows out and jumped through them to safety.

If you have a weapon and can stop the killing, you are not defenseless. We're not talking about bad guys accosting you on the street. We're talking about bad guys who have already shot people and are actively shooting more. We're not talking about driving halfway across town at breakneck speeds so you can participate in a takedown. We're not talking about listening in on police scanners or 911 and racing to where the action is. We're talking about being in the middle of the situation, while it's actively unfolding, and having the means to do something about it. We're talking about being within hearing distance of the shots and realizing that people are being killed.

The Tucson shootings took less than five minutes. The Virginia Tech shootings took perhaps twice that much time. Columbine was much longer.

If I die in that scenario, I'm fine with that. If you're not, then get out. I'm going to do my best to stop the killing while being wise and careful about what I do. But I'm not running away from the gunfire. I may be fat and old, but I can still shoot straight.

[baldeagle]

just found this link to a video on CNN
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestof ... cnn?hpt=T2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Joe Zamudio, an armed man who helped restrain the Tucson shooting suspect, explains how he avoided a tragic mistake.

This person explains what he experienced as a person carrying a firearm. He almost engaged another person who was trying to do take down the threat as well. Provides some great insight and tells his thought process. I especially like the mans comments about the whole magazine issue.

And i love this forum and this discussion because its causing me to really think what i would have done in that situation. I am definately taking what XD, baldeagle and others have said into strong consideration as well to hopefully do what is necessary if i ever experience a situation similar to AZ though i pray that never happens.

I highly recommend that everyone watch this video. Zamudio is a perfect example of what a CHL holder should be. He made a deliberate decision to carry a gun and trained so he could use it effectively. He thought scenarios through, just as we do here, and planned ahead for what he hoped would never come. When the day arrived, he ran toward the guns, prepared to use his weapon, assessed the situation correctly and determined that the use of deadly force was no longer necessary. He assisted in securing the bad guy until police arrived. When police arrived he identified himself and informed them that he was armed.

On the definitive CHL "test", Zamudio scored 100%. Then he earned bonus points for correctly answering the news media's questions, all of which were directed to getting him to admit that citizens should not own guns. He even cleared the "why does anybody need a 33 round magazine" hurdle without even breaking a sweat.

[Keith]

Not to get off subject but I wanted to answer CCItalian. I carry a 200 grn JHP 1250fps__694 ft lbs Double Tap in 10mm. I know way more then I need. Rather it be that way then not enough.

Some bad people walking around that are well over 200 lbs with a gut. You will need 14 to 15 inches pf penetration for a center mass shot. Dont get me wrong as I love the 155 grn Barnes by Double Tap. Getting back to thread great talk. I think if nothing else it gets us all thinking.

Im just thankful that after 38 years in Illinois I now have the ability to defend myself and family with a firearm legaly. Long live the 10mm, God Bless Texas and CHLers.CCItalian

[G.A. Heath]

I carry a gun so I can defend myself, and those I love. Those who gain the immediate benefit of me defending the previous two are just icing on the cake. I do not carry a gun to protect someone else, nor do I have the mistaken idea that someone else will have to come to my aid if I need it. If I draw I know exactly what the threat is, where its coming from, and why it needs to be stopped. I am not going to go rushing into the middle of a situation in which I know nothing about. Joe is a hero: he went in, forced one guy to drop a weapon, and then helped restrain the suspect. He may have actually saved the life of the guy who was holding the weapon because that man may have been shot had he been holding that weapon when police arrived. However in the same situation I would not do the same because I have a Concealed Handgun License, not a Batman license. To put it bluntly I am not a hero, super or otherwise, nor do I wish to be.