I know we can use deadly force if our life is in danger, such as a knife being presented, or weapon, etc.
But having been in a confrontation before, I faced numerous punks who appeared to be bare-fisted and didn't present weapons.
Could you use deadly force if you were getting beat up by one or multiple persons? ...Like a gang type beat down where you may get stomped on by multiple people while you're on the ground. Is it ok to show your pistol and to threaten to shoot them, if there are guys walking towards you and they're verbally saying, "They're going to F' me up?"
Or what if someone was trying to rob you without using weapons? ...Just using their larger size or fists to threaten you into giving up your wallet?
Using Deadly Force against Fists?
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It depends on the person, you have to be able to articulate why you felt your life was in danger.
Im 6'5" 275lb, if 2 - 120lb teenagers came to beat me up and I pulled my gun I would have a hard time articulating my fear of death from their fists when it got to the jury.
An 85 year old woman in a wheelchair when confronted by the same 2 teenagers would not have a problem explaining her fear of death due to their fists.
2 full grown men come and tell me they are going to kill me but they show no weapons, Im drawing my gun as I retreat. Its not a shoot I would want to make and try to explain but I would rather be around to make the explanation than the alternative.
On a side note this type of situation is why I carry good quality pepper spray whenever I carry a gun, and when I cant carry my gun too. =)
Im 6'5" 275lb, if 2 - 120lb teenagers came to beat me up and I pulled my gun I would have a hard time articulating my fear of death from their fists when it got to the jury.
An 85 year old woman in a wheelchair when confronted by the same 2 teenagers would not have a problem explaining her fear of death due to their fists.
2 full grown men come and tell me they are going to kill me but they show no weapons, Im drawing my gun as I retreat. Its not a shoot I would want to make and try to explain but I would rather be around to make the explanation than the alternative.
On a side note this type of situation is why I carry good quality pepper spray whenever I carry a gun, and when I cant carry my gun too. =)
Tallmike is very right. Welcome aboard sir.
For several yrs I have taught my Mom, 76 ys old, that she is in far more danger than at a lower stage of violence than I am at:
46, strong, healthy & mobile. This was 10 yrs ago.
Now, 56, recovering from major surgery, developed aurtharitis bad, not very mobile at all, things are different for me now than then.
The 76 or 82 yr old man or lady is in much more danger of major body harm if they are pushed down on a park around vehicle bumpers, concrete curbs, etc. Broken hips are a major cause of death to the elderly.
Bottom line is the same as above: Can you articulate (tell why) you felt your life was in danger?
For several yrs I have taught my Mom, 76 ys old, that she is in far more danger than at a lower stage of violence than I am at:
46, strong, healthy & mobile. This was 10 yrs ago.
Now, 56, recovering from major surgery, developed aurtharitis bad, not very mobile at all, things are different for me now than then.
The 76 or 82 yr old man or lady is in much more danger of major body harm if they are pushed down on a park around vehicle bumpers, concrete curbs, etc. Broken hips are a major cause of death to the elderly.
Bottom line is the same as above: Can you articulate (tell why) you felt your life was in danger?
Carry 24-7 or guess right.
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stevie_d_64
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A very long time ago, someone presented this issue in another discussion (this was way before texasCHLform.com)...
I came out of it thinking that if you don't believe a "fist" could not be a deadly weapon, then you're going to lose that battle in any event...Regardless of the severity of the beating...
I remember one of the first documented defensive uses of a firearm of a Texas CHL'er...
The CHL'er was in his vehicle, no way to de-escalate, or drive away, the suspect got out of their vehicle and proceeded to give the CHL'er a whoopin' through the drivers side window at a traffic signal...IIRC...
That ended up with the suspect deceased, and everyone (anti's) going "See, I told you so!"
Now whether or not the beating would have resulted in a deadly result for the CHL'er, we'll never know...
But I am certainly not going to stand by and allow myself (if I have no other way to stop the attack or de-escalate it, or remove myself from the situation) to be beat into submission or other serious injuries or death...I kinda prefer to eat solid foods from time to time...
I my opinion assault is still a deadly game...And whether it is "aggravated" by the use of a weapon is only a legal determination after the fact...I'm not going to worry about that at the time...
I will act as a reasonable person to counter the assault with the reasonable means I have at that time to either remove myself, de-escalate, or use force level necessary to stop the assault...
As far as I am concerned, a "fist" is still a skill and a means to inflict serious bodily injury or death...
I came out of it thinking that if you don't believe a "fist" could not be a deadly weapon, then you're going to lose that battle in any event...Regardless of the severity of the beating...
I remember one of the first documented defensive uses of a firearm of a Texas CHL'er...
The CHL'er was in his vehicle, no way to de-escalate, or drive away, the suspect got out of their vehicle and proceeded to give the CHL'er a whoopin' through the drivers side window at a traffic signal...IIRC...
That ended up with the suspect deceased, and everyone (anti's) going "See, I told you so!"
Now whether or not the beating would have resulted in a deadly result for the CHL'er, we'll never know...
But I am certainly not going to stand by and allow myself (if I have no other way to stop the attack or de-escalate it, or remove myself from the situation) to be beat into submission or other serious injuries or death...I kinda prefer to eat solid foods from time to time...
I my opinion assault is still a deadly game...And whether it is "aggravated" by the use of a weapon is only a legal determination after the fact...I'm not going to worry about that at the time...
I will act as a reasonable person to counter the assault with the reasonable means I have at that time to either remove myself, de-escalate, or use force level necessary to stop the assault...
As far as I am concerned, a "fist" is still a skill and a means to inflict serious bodily injury or death...
"Perseverance and Preparedness triumph over Procrastination and Paranoia every time.” -- Steve
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stevie_d_64
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A reasonable person acting in a reasonable way...tallmike wrote:Im drawing my gun as I retreat.
I refuse to entertain throwing rocks at this concept...
Welcome to the forum "tallmike"!
"Perseverance and Preparedness triumph over Procrastination and Paranoia every time.” -- Steve
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What was the outcome of that case? I think I remember, but not sure.stevie_d_64 wrote: I remember one of the first documented defensive uses of a firearm of a Texas CHL'er...
The CHL'er was in his vehicle, no way to de-escalate, or drive away, the suspect got out of their vehicle and proceeded to give the CHL'er a whoopin' through the drivers side window at a traffic signal...IIRC...
Also, wasn't there a case this year, or last, in Houston where a man (CHL'r) shot and killed a person that put his fist through his drivers side window? I think the deceased was upset that the shooter had cut him off in traffic or something to that effect. If I recall correctly, the deceased had his 16 year old daughter in his car too. She witnessed the entire event. It was a bad deal for her to see her father die because of his temper. I do not think the driver (shooter) was procecuted.
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The Marshal
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John,
IIRC, it was in Arlington.
The attacker was in a plumbing(?) truck, travelling with his brother.
The victim somehow had his door mirror tangle with the door mirror of the attacker's vehicle. The result was that the attacker worked up a good case of Road Rage, and started chasing the victim, getting caught in traffic at the various lights, and shouting and gesturing at the victim.
The victim did his best to get away, but at a traffic light the attacker pulled up next to the victim, exited his car, and approached the driver side.
Apparently, the victim had his window open, and was attempting to diffuse the situation. The attacker was of Samoan descent; he was huge! I recall he was 6,4", 300+ and built like a refrigerator. Attacker grabs victim with one hand and pulls him halfway out of the vehicle, and commences to beat him senseless with the free hand.
Victim could not move, seatbelt was wrapped around his throat, and was blacking out. Victim reached with right hand across seat, came up with pistol. Leveling pistol in door frame, shoots attacker 1(?) time in the chest.
Attackers last words were something like "Why the **** did you shoot me?" and he expires on the spot.
Went to grand jury, and the evidence was clear, so he was no-billed.
Mind you, I vaguely remember this, however at the time State Rep. Allen of Grand Prairie was running a gun school for CHL training, and he told me about it as the first 'test case'.
It made and impression. I got a CHL too.
~Bill
IIRC, it was in Arlington.
The attacker was in a plumbing(?) truck, travelling with his brother.
The victim somehow had his door mirror tangle with the door mirror of the attacker's vehicle. The result was that the attacker worked up a good case of Road Rage, and started chasing the victim, getting caught in traffic at the various lights, and shouting and gesturing at the victim.
The victim did his best to get away, but at a traffic light the attacker pulled up next to the victim, exited his car, and approached the driver side.
Apparently, the victim had his window open, and was attempting to diffuse the situation. The attacker was of Samoan descent; he was huge! I recall he was 6,4", 300+ and built like a refrigerator. Attacker grabs victim with one hand and pulls him halfway out of the vehicle, and commences to beat him senseless with the free hand.
Victim could not move, seatbelt was wrapped around his throat, and was blacking out. Victim reached with right hand across seat, came up with pistol. Leveling pistol in door frame, shoots attacker 1(?) time in the chest.
Attackers last words were something like "Why the **** did you shoot me?" and he expires on the spot.
Went to grand jury, and the evidence was clear, so he was no-billed.
Mind you, I vaguely remember this, however at the time State Rep. Allen of Grand Prairie was running a gun school for CHL training, and he told me about it as the first 'test case'.
It made and impression. I got a CHL too.
~Bill
He was taking a road test as part of a job interview.The Marshal wrote:The attacker was in a plumbing(?) truck, travelling with his brother.
I'd say he failed in spectacular fashion.
Details: http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 9086#19086
Kevin
This is an interesting thread, and one I wish a former TexasCHLforum member was here to comment on. Ray Glass of Friendswood (many of you may remember him with the screen name "Sensei") passed away last August at the age of 60. Ray was a USAF veteran, and started his martial arts training while in Viet Nam. He was vice president of the American Isshinryu Karate Association, an Okinawan system, and owner of Ray Glass Isshinryu Karate and Kobudo.
The truth of the matter is that, for the average citizen, we're more likely to face an unarmed aggressor at some point in our lives than an armed one. Many of you already may have, and the good news is that the encounter probably wasn't life-endangering. If a threat has a firearm in hand, the picture is black and white. An edged weapon or stick in hand, very-dark-gray and white. No visible weapon, you're pretty much in a muddy gray area...and you should be on extreme alert and--an important point, I think--have some personal defense and tactical training in addition to firearm skills: to help you better assess the threat and better understand your options.
There are a lot of factors that go into assessing a threat that is, or seems to be, unarmed: emotion (an aggressor who's so angry his head is about to explode is doing you a favor--he's easier to assess and his judgment is diminished), environmental conditions (obstacles, cover, retreat routes, witnesses, visibility, footing, etc.), possibility of hidden weapons, number of assailants and positioning, physical characteristics of assailant(s), etc. But perhaps the two most important are the distance between you and the possible threat, and your own physical condition/capabilities.
As LT pointed out, "know thyself" is critical. And "thyself" changes over time. If I thought an unarmed me of 30 years ago really had it in for the me of today, I wouldn't let the guy get within 25 feet of me. Likewise, what I perceive as an unarmed threat has changed over time; and the threat radius has grown larger.
I think the thread is interesting because, when you start talking about intervention against an unarmed assailant, the ethical, legal, and tactical considerations have a greater range of "what if?" than when facing an armed threat.
The truth of the matter is that, for the average citizen, we're more likely to face an unarmed aggressor at some point in our lives than an armed one. Many of you already may have, and the good news is that the encounter probably wasn't life-endangering. If a threat has a firearm in hand, the picture is black and white. An edged weapon or stick in hand, very-dark-gray and white. No visible weapon, you're pretty much in a muddy gray area...and you should be on extreme alert and--an important point, I think--have some personal defense and tactical training in addition to firearm skills: to help you better assess the threat and better understand your options.
There are a lot of factors that go into assessing a threat that is, or seems to be, unarmed: emotion (an aggressor who's so angry his head is about to explode is doing you a favor--he's easier to assess and his judgment is diminished), environmental conditions (obstacles, cover, retreat routes, witnesses, visibility, footing, etc.), possibility of hidden weapons, number of assailants and positioning, physical characteristics of assailant(s), etc. But perhaps the two most important are the distance between you and the possible threat, and your own physical condition/capabilities.
As LT pointed out, "know thyself" is critical. And "thyself" changes over time. If I thought an unarmed me of 30 years ago really had it in for the me of today, I wouldn't let the guy get within 25 feet of me.
Likewise, what I perceive as an unarmed threat has changed over time; and the threat radius has grown larger.I think the thread is interesting because, when you start talking about intervention against an unarmed assailant, the ethical, legal, and tactical considerations have a greater range of "what if?" than when facing an armed threat.
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txinvestigator
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The law says you can use deadly force when and to the degree you reasonably believe it is immediately necessary to protect yourself from another's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force against you. And unless that other person is in your house, there is an added requirement that your use of DF is only justified if a reasonable person in your situation would not have retreated.
Deadly force is force which causes or in the manner of its use can cause death or serious bodily injury.
Its not really about your life being "in danger" as much as it is being able to articulate the above.
To use deadly force against a one-on-one physical confrontation you need to be able to show that your belief was reasonable that your use of DF was immediately necessary, and it was to prevent the others causing you death or serious bodily injury.
That standard is "what was reasonable from my point of view" if I am the person defending myself. That standard will be different for different people, as already pointed out.
This is one reason why I am a huge fan of less-lethal self-defense devices such as OC (pepper spray) and self-defense training.
I would much rather use OC early in a situation where I was not able to de-escalate a situation and not have it escalate to a point where I have no choice t use deadly force.
That said, there could easily be incidents where OC would not be enough force to protect yourself.
If facing multiple attackers disparity of force could dictate that the use of deadly force is appropriate. Just remember the key is; would a reasonable person retreat, is it reasonable that you believe you must immediately use DF to defend against the others use of attempted use of DF.
Deadly force is force which causes or in the manner of its use can cause death or serious bodily injury.
Its not really about your life being "in danger" as much as it is being able to articulate the above.
To use deadly force against a one-on-one physical confrontation you need to be able to show that your belief was reasonable that your use of DF was immediately necessary, and it was to prevent the others causing you death or serious bodily injury.
That standard is "what was reasonable from my point of view" if I am the person defending myself. That standard will be different for different people, as already pointed out.
This is one reason why I am a huge fan of less-lethal self-defense devices such as OC (pepper spray) and self-defense training.
I would much rather use OC early in a situation where I was not able to de-escalate a situation and not have it escalate to a point where I have no choice t use deadly force.
That said, there could easily be incidents where OC would not be enough force to protect yourself.
If facing multiple attackers disparity of force could dictate that the use of deadly force is appropriate. Just remember the key is; would a reasonable person retreat, is it reasonable that you believe you must immediately use DF to defend against the others use of attempted use of DF.
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Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
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txinvestigator
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Does he list deadly weapons in his book, and he does not lists fists?Stupid wrote:Read Ayoob's book "In the gravest extreme"
I am supprised to see that fist is NOT deadly weapon. For those who think you would only get a black eye, that is deadly wrong. Hands and fingers are really powerful tool. In on swoop, one can break your windpine and pull your eye out.
Texas does not list deadly weapons. All we have to worry about is if the force being used against use, in the manner of its use, is capable of causing serious bodily or death.
The fact that fists can has been well established in Texas law.
We had an officer who ended up with a BG sitting on her chest pounding her head into the pavement and smashing her face with his fists. She warned him that she was going to shoot him, he ignored her and she fired one .357 round thru him. No only was she no-billed, but the family of BG sued, and the jury awarded the officer a judgement against the family.
*CHL Instructor*
"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan
Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan
Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
Wow now that is justice! But you know the family is going to say the jurors were racists!!! Did that scumbag die?txinvestigator wrote:Does he list deadly weapons in his book, and he does not lists fists?Stupid wrote:Read Ayoob's book "In the gravest extreme"
I am supprised to see that fist is NOT deadly weapon. For those who think you would only get a black eye, that is deadly wrong. Hands and fingers are really powerful tool. In on swoop, one can break your windpine and pull your eye out.
Texas does not list deadly weapons. All we have to worry about is if the force being used against use, in the manner of its use, is capable of causing serious bodily or death.
The fact that fists can has been well established in Texas law.
We had an officer who ended up with a BG sitting on her chest pounding her head into the pavement and smashing her face with his fists. She warned him that she was going to shoot him, he ignored her and she fired one .357 round thru him. No only was she no-billed, but the family of BG sued, and the jury awarded the officer a judgement against the family.
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