Does magazine capacity affect how many times you shoot?

[baldeagle]

This is not a discussion about the recent attempts to limit magazine capacity. I'm interested in others' thoughts about this issue strictly from a tactical standpoint.

I have two weapons; a double stack 9mm pistol (15 round mags) and a single stack (7 round mags) .357 Sig pistol. I've been thinking a lot about how many rounds I should be carrying routinely. Right now I carry one extra mag (soon to be two) which is 15 rounds total (soon to be 22). With one extra double stack mag I would be carrying 31 rounds. I realize it's impossible to know how many rounds you would actually need when you don't know in advance what will happen. By the same token, practicality says you don't carry 15 double stack mags on you. There has to be a limit that seems reasonable for your lifestyle and the places you must frequent.

While thinking about all this I recalled how when I'm practicing at the range I go through a lot more ammo with the 9 than I do with the .357. That got me to wondering, is it just human nature to fire more rounds if you know you have more to fire? Would I be a more cautious shooter if I had less total rounds available?

Has anyone else pondered this question? What are your thoughts? The last thing I would want to do in a life or death situation is run out of ammo while at least one bad guy is still standing. OTOH, would I be more careful and aim much more carefully if I knew my total rounds were limited? Or does the stress and adrenaline of a life or death situation throw all the training out the window?

I'd be particularly interested in hearing from people who have real world experience with this. Military or LEOs who have been in firefights and have thought about these issues would be most welcome.

Please don't engage in idle speculation. I'm serious about this. I want to know if you've thought about it and, if so, what your thoughts are and the reasoning behind your thoughts.

[Beiruty]

It is most likely based on the engagement scenario and number of the identified threats. If you dealing with one threat, most likely you would be driven to dispense on max number of rds in shortest time possible to terminate the threat. If you are dealing with many threats or unknown number of threats that may engage you would immediately budget and conserve rds and especially when you are in dipping in the second and last magazine and try to disengage and leave the scene for safety or to seek more firepower.

Yes, caliber and max capacity does make a difference in your shootings.

As for me when I do carry, it is like I am carrying 13+1 plus 1x17, ( plus sometimes 1x13), that is like 31 or 44 rds. Or with second carry 15+1 plus 2x15 for a total of 46 rds, thus with 9mm you have more ammo than you need to engage 1 or more threats unless you are dealing with Libya-style "peaceful" demonstrators.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

IMHO, I think we should all have the number of rounds we think may
handle any encounter, with a comfortable amout of backup rounds.

Carrying only a 2 shot derringer is foolish.
Carrying only a 5 shot revolver would be better, but still seems too few for me.
Carrying 6-10 rounds in something ought to be enough, but more rounds are always better.

Keep in mind that if you had to defend yourself and shoot someone, you want to "stop the
threat" with as few rounds as possible. If your adrenalin really rolled and you put all 15
rounds into the perp, any future legal proceedings might be worse for you than if you
could get the job done with 2 rounds.

I have a different consideration that I think about when I consider my next EDC:
Moving up to a .45 would give me the largest regular caliber, but fewer rounds,
anywhere from a 7 + 1 in a 1911 to maybe a 12 + 1 in many semi-auto's.

But if I decided to stay with a 9MM, I could easily get a 17 + 1.
The rounds would be smaller than a .45 but I would have more of them before
a reload would be needed.

My current EDC is 10 + 1. I always have at least 1 more 10 round mag on me,
giving me a minimum of 21 rounds of Speer Gold Dots. But when I'm able I have
2 ten round mags on me, for a total of 31 rounds. My BUG is in the seatbelt
holster with 6 rounds of .38 in it, so chances are I would not even have access
to the BUG if I'm out of the driver's seat. 21-31 rounds on body seems like
enough insurance to me, but it wouldn't make me fire any more than necessary
to stop the threat.

SIA

[RPB]

Just a thought.

You probably don't want to be standing still, forming your Weaver or Isosceles stance and taking careful aim while lead is headed in your direction.

Firing while playing dodgeball means I want higher capacity, meanwhile, I don't want to give the other guy time to stand still either.

People would laugh that I carry 20+1 and 2 to 3, often 4 spare 20 round mags (one on belt, 2 or 3 in jeans pockets) plus a 6-round BUG. I look at it as a weight loss exercise program here in the hill country, carrying the extra ammo as weight, like I used to wear ankle weights while jogging etc. I never expect to need it all, but who knows when 100 wild boar might need removing out of my front yard. (Like I said, hill country here)

Still, I bought a 13+1 .45 (Springfield XD 45 Service with grip and thumb safety) last week which it and one 13 round spare mag may become primary, so I haven't decided if my current EDC, the Glock 26 as a BUG, maybe, will still carry 20, or just 15 or 13, and a spare 20 round mag. The 20 round mag ( 17+3 Pearce baseplate) fits a pouch attached to my holster better than the shorter Glock 26 or 19 ones do.


No matter how much ammo I had on, I'd only shoot till the threat is over. I"d like to have leftovers in case a threat's buddies drove up afterward..... the wild boar heard's buddies branch chapter

[baldeagle]

Just a thought.

You probably don't want to be standing still, forming your Weaver or Isosceles stance and taking careful aim while lead is headed in your direction.

Firing while playing dodgeball means I want higher capacity, meanwhile, I don't want to give the other guy time to stand still either.

People would laugh that I carry 20+1 and 2 to 3, often 4 spare 20 round mags (one on belt, 2 or 3 in jeans pockets) plus a 6-round BUG. I look at it as a weight loss exercise program here in the hill country, carrying the extra ammo as weight, like I used to wear ankle weights while jogging etc. I never expect to need it all, but who knows when 100 wild boar might need removing out of my front yard. (Like I said, hill country here)

Still, I bought a 13+1 .45 (Springfield XD 45 Service with grip and thumb safety) last week which it and one 13 round spare mag may become primary, so I haven't decided if my current EDC, the Glock 26 as a BUG, maybe, will still carry 20, or just 15 or 13, and a spare 20 round mag. The 20 round mag ( 17+3 Pearce baseplate) fits a pouch attached to my holster better than the shorter Glock 26 or 19 ones do.


No matter how much ammo I had on, I'd only shoot till the threat is over. I"d like to have leftovers in case a threat's buddies drove up afterward..... the wild boar heard's buddies branch chapter

But my question isn't would you only shoot until you stop the threat? I think most of us would do exactly that. My question is would you be more likely to "waste" some rounds, firing wildly, if you knew you have plenty to spare? Or would you be more careful, conserve rounds and try to make every shot count?

Let's face it, if you had 75 rounds on body and 100 wild boar bearing down on you, you might be more likely to choose your shots carefully than if you had 75 rounds on body and 10 wild boar coming at you. RIght? So, my question is, does the same basic principle apply when you carry a weapon that "forces" you to carry fewer rounds? Or does the heat of battle throw all that planning out the window and now you'll wish you had more capacity?

[srothstein]

I think the answer to your question is a matter of training. As a trained shooter, I was first taught to shoot, reevaluate, shoot if still needed, reevaluate, repeat as necessary. later the tactics switched to the double tap which would be shoot twice, reevaluate, repeat as necessary. No, this change did not coincide with the switch to large capacity semi's - it was still with the revolvers that we started the switch. When I did need to shoot, I reverted to the original one shot then reevaluate. My partner did the double tap routine. It was how he had been trained.

In high stress shootings by non-trained people, there is a distinct split between two groups. From what I have read and without a proper study, it appears to be a split between the single shot or double tap and the empty the weapon until you hear a click. People with no training appear to stop after one shot because they are surprised they even fired, or they panic and empty the weapon.

I should note that the police are now training for sustained spray and pray also. There is a theory that it is easier to train cops to do what they would have done instinctively anyway. In the case of people who shoot until the weapon is empty clearly shoot more with higher capacity magazines.

In practice though, I tend to shoot various strings until the magazine is empty. When I run out of magazines with me, I have to stop and reload. So, I go through 4 eight round magazines with my 1911 and 3 fifteen round magazines with my Glock. Reloading takes about the same time because I do not just spend my time reloading but also talking, etc. Shooting takes time for 32 rounds or 45 rounds at a time, then a break. I almost always end up shooting more 40 cal than I do 45 cal because of this simple factor.

[The Annoyed Man]

My question is would you be more likely to "waste" some rounds, firing wildly, if you knew you have plenty to spare? Or would you be more careful, conserve rounds and try to make every shot count?

I guess my answer would be as follows....

If I were shooting at 100 wild pigs out in the middle of the country, I wouldn't worry so much about "wild" shots, but if I were in the middle of downtown Grapevine, or in my home, I would be greatly worried about where my "wild" shots would be going. For that matter, unless I could confirm a good sight picture, or I had a laser dot centered on my intended target, I would not pull the trigger - no matter how many rounds I had on me at the time. Now, I grant that my target could move, making it less than 100% certain that my shot would connect. And I also grant that the huge adrenaline dump might so affect my hand-eye coordination as to throw my aim off, but my intent would be to not hit anyone I wasn't trying to hit. Therefore, I would not fire wildly, and therefore, magazine capacity would not be a determinant in how I shot the gun.

[fickman]

At the range, I practice with my firearms differently:

Sig P229 .40: 2 rounds at a time
XD SC40: 2 rounds at a time
Kimber 1911: 1 round at a time
5 shot revolvers: 1 round at a time

. . . guess I hadn't consciously thought about it, but at somewhere under 10 rounds, I feel preserving ammunition is more important than the double-tap.

[Vecco]

Stopping the threat determines how much I shoot or if I reload

[Skiprr]

...is it just human nature to fire more rounds if you know you have more to fire? Would I be a more cautious shooter if I had less total rounds available?

Well - would you?

To heck with human nature; it doesn't matter what anybody else is likely to do - they're irrelevant. What you need to concern yourself with is what you are likely to do; how "aware" are you?

I used to run with 6 full AK mags on me (1 in the gun, 5 in the vest so roughly 180 rounds) and about another 12 or so full mags in a grab-bag at my feet and a Browning HP with a few spare mags. That's a fair amount of ammo, but we still tapped out aimed single shots in semi-auto like misers because we didn't know if we were going to have to hole up in some nasty little hovel 10 minutes later.

What I'm getting at is that we didn't have the luxury of resupply by little bird - and it'd be exactly the same for you out in the street. You have what you brung - that's it; you need to be aware at all times of what you have and what options that gives you. That awareness gives you fluency - you're not locked into any pre-planned sequences, so that allows you the freedom to act fluidly and efficiently without freezing and stammering or trying to think it through under pressure.

Star this one and refer to it often. Andy speaks from experience.

The only thing I would add is that training equals performance. How you practice equates to how you will execute if the real thing comes around.

If you only practice on stationary targets at a slow-fire range, you’re at a disadvantage.

To the OP: It ain’t so much about the rounds in the magazine as it is about the gunman’s skill and ability to reload. Watch a competitive USPSA shooter in the single-stack division. Google Travis Tomasi.

What concerns me is that you would bring this up so recently after the inflammatory debate over “large” magazine capacity following the Gabby Giffords shooting.

[Seabear]

I have to believe that more amo can lead some to spray and pray.

I see this every time I shoot Steel Challenge http://steelchallenge.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (five targets) I see guys using revolvers being very deliberate in their actions, making every shot count if possible. Then there are the guys with race guns and 30 round mags that tend to let some tripple taps fly at one plate.

I think I mentioned during hunting season when I needed to shoot two rather large hogs in a trap and all I had was my snubby with 2 round of snake shot and three Gold Dots. I felt seriously short on ammo. It was a sick feeling. It DID make me concentrate on placing my shots and the two hogs died with one shot each. In a deffensive situation that type of shot placement could take enough time to get you killed. So with that said, I have to agree with Andy's assesment.

Now, my EDC is a .45 compact double stack 10+1 . I haven't taken to carrying the spare 12 round mags yet, however I keep them handy in my console. I guess I really should start carrying one with me, I have just always figured that if a problem arises I woud be headed to my truck to get gone, so it would be logical to keep some spare ammo there.

[WildBill]

This a very good thread. It has caused me to think about my training.

[MoJo]

Like Andy, I too have seen the elephant. Deliberate aimed fire beats spray 'n pray every day. When I was in Vietnam, I told my guys not to switch to full auto until I told them to. How many rounds to fire depends on the attacker - - - one shot he goes down great! If it takes more then apply them. As CHLs we have to be aware of collateral damage. Every bullet that misses it's intended target has a lawsuit attached. Remember to take your time - - - quickly.